When is SF86 filled out/dual citizen?

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by Ryanjohansen25, May 15, 2016.

  1. Ryanjohansen25

    Ryanjohansen25 New Member

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    Hi,

    I'm going to be a mid at UC Berkeley's nrotc this year. I was wondering - when do mids fill out the SF86 for security clearance? Is it before commissioning or earlier?

    On a related note, I am a dual citizen. I have no loyalty to the other country, and I'm fully willing to renounce my citizenship to commission. The thing is, my parents and I don't really think it's wise to renounce the citizenship before I actually reach my 1/c year, because the odds of actually commissioning from the start of 4/c are like 50/50. It's a global world, and though I am an American, there's no denying the convenience of a second citizenship when it comes to employment or travel or whatever. So does anyone know WHEN exactly mids are asked to renounce dual citizenship? That's not something that seems to actually have been answered on the forum.

    So let me know if you have any answers to either question. Thx!

    God bless
     
  2. NavyNOLA

    NavyNOLA Member

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    You'll complete your SF86 during your freshman year and receive a clearance hopefully before sophomore year starts (for the students coming in on scholarship). Not sure about the dual citizenship question.
     
  3. bcal

    bcal Member

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    I am by no means an expert, but from what I understand in order to be granted a security clearance you must renounce your foreign citizenship. If you are on scholarship you will receive a clearance before CORTRAMID in order to participate in sub week. When you begin the paperwork likely varies by unit, but for the MIDN at my unit they submit the SF-86 to get the ball rolling about midway through the fall semester. At some point between SF-86 submission and final adjudication you will have to renounce your citizenship. If you are not on scholarship, you will not begin the clearance process until you pick up a side-load or Advanced Standing.
     
  4. BigBillNY

    BigBillNY Member

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    FYI- I am a supervisory immigration officer at DHS and I try to help when I see dual national posts.

    You will be required to renounce your dual citizenship at some point, provided you are in fact a dual national. You would be surprised at the number of people who think they possess dual citizenship when they don't. Being entitled to claim a second nationality is not the same as actually possessing it. Generally, if you were born in the US and have taken no action to claim your second nationality (by getting a passport, citizenship documents, etc..) you would not be considered a dual national.

    If you were born overseas, then the concept of dual nationality may attach depending on what country you immigrated from. Some countries automatically strip their citizenship when someone acquires a new nationality. It can be quite complex. If you are unsure, the best bet is contact the embassy of your second nationality and have them make a determination if you are, or are not, a citizen of that country.

    Best of luck.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
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  5. Ryanjohansen25

    Ryanjohansen25 New Member

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    Thanks for all those answers. Unfortunately, I know for a fact that I am a citizen of the other country, as my parents have acquired a passport from that country for me.

    I am completely willing to renounce the citizenship to become an officer; I just don't want to throw it away and NOT become an officer, you know? Life is long, and it could be useful. Still looking for help on the WHEN I renounce. That's a real bummer if it's freshman year for CORTRAMID. I'll have to communicate with my XO I guess.
     
  6. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    1000% agree with BigBillNY.
    ~ Having 2 passports as a minor is different than when you turn 18. I have friends where their kids had 2 passports, but at 18 they were forced to relinquish 1 of the passports because now they were legally adults. Hence, something BigBill was alluding to in his post regarding why you need to look even deeper than just the fact you have 2 passports.

    I get your desire to navigate the situation if you do have dual citizenship, however, impo you need to just trust the system. If you have a dual citizenship they will come to you according to their timeline. You might want to wait until your C1C year, but if they say that it must be completed by your C3C than that is what it is going to be. They are not going to say you can hang onto it for 2 more years because the ROTC commission rate is 50/50 and you want to leave your options open.
    ~ Caveat: If you are not scholarship, than you have bigger issues because like bcal stated you need to be picked up as a side load during NROTC before your junior year.

    Either way, this could all be moot. Renouncing is letter M and because you have yet to even start college and you are not even at letter A yet. Letter A starts when you step on campus and pass the PFA (scholarship or not). The reason the commissioning rate is low is because many mids/cadets think as a HS student that they want to serve. Yet, when they get there and live it with the idea that they will be 27 on a good day before they can leave, their views change.
    ~ Just me, but impo, the big statistical drop is during the 1st 2 years.
    ~~ Scholarship can walk with no payback before they show up for the 1st day Sophomore year. Non-Scholarship between soph and jr yr if they do not get a sideload.


    I also think that your idea of the global economy is a reason why is not necessarily true for any newly minted college grad, even for Berkeley. Work Visa's exist for a reason. Just because you have a dual does not equate to an employment edge.
    ~ Caveat: Countries where we don't have the best political relations. However, if you are saying you have dual from Canada, I doubt you will get any edge at all compared to let's say a student that did a semester abroad in the country, and you have only visited the country.
    ~~ Plus, it can become a problem if you decide to work for DoD related companies, such as, Rand, Raytheon, SAIC, L3 Comm, Booz Allen, Lockheed, etc, because they will want you to have a security clearance too.

    Life is indeed long, but I also would say think about how someone like me is reading your post. I am not saying today or tomorrow you need to decide, but you will need to get off the fence soon. This site is filled with posters regarding holding onto a ROTC scholarship while they have an appointment. It is and has always been a debate. Basically the camps are divided into 2 groups...keeping the scholarship as plan after the appointment, thus taking away from someone else's plan A vs. throwing it back and letting that person have the chance.
    ~ In essence, that is what I am reading with your situation.
    ~~ I don't want to renounce because I want to keep my back up in place, if it means for my future success I will turn my back on the U.S. and consider myself a citizen of a country that I have no tie to, except because of my parents.

    Harsh? Yes! However, I want you to think about what you are entering come Aug/Sept. regarding what ROTC is about. SERVICE BEFORE SELF. Take the year and decide if you are willing to work in a career field that the Navy decides, move to wherever they determine, deploy whenever they say for at least 4 years after graduation. 24/7/365 days a year.
    ~ It takes a unique person to live this life.
    ~~ My DS is an O2 AF pilot. His grandmother died while he was at UPT. He could not get home for the funeral. Has been home 1x in 3 yrs for Xmas (never home for Thanksgiving or Easter). Will miss his 2nd wedding anniversary with his wife due to deployment. Has been stationed at 3 bases already. Believe it or not, at least for the AF (which is the prima donna branch) that is common.
    ~~~ Ask kinnem what his DS's life has been like since commissioning. Those 1st few years, is about training. Training in the military for Thanksgiving can mean off at 4 on Weds., and back by Sunday. Hard to do if you are at Quantico and need to get back to Idaho, especially from a financial aspect. The same is true for Xmas. They will give off Xmas Eve, but classes might start back up on the 26th. You just can't say as an O1, I want a week off to spend with the fam. Nor can you say my wife is due in May and the deployment ends June, so I prefer not to go.
    ~~~~ Another cliche that is true for every branch...if they wanted you to have a spouse they would issue you one. Not saying they won't try to accommodate, just saying it is part of the deal when you raise your hand.

    You will have a year to decide if you are willing to respond how high when they say jump. However, at this point, if you are on the fence, please look at that bad parts too. Don't just buy into that scholarship $$$, or the websites/brochures. Truly talk to the XO and decide if you are willing to serve 24/7 for 4 years in a career field that was your 3rd choice.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2016
  7. ArielsMom

    ArielsMom Member

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    My DD was a 4-year AFROTC recipient and a dual citizen (Canada). She ended up turning down the scholarship because she was required to renounce her Canadian citizenship before contracting her Freshman year per ARMS-AFROTC-12-032 (a clarification memorandum issued for cadets starting the program after 1/1/2012). I do not know what the regulation is for the Navy, but you should contact your detachment ASAP for clarification. As stated by BigBillNY, you will be required to renounce at some point, but maybe not Freshman year.

    She has since gone on to graduate with a BS, Mechanical Engineering and currently works for a defense contractor. She has been granted a security clearance without renouncing her Canadian citizenship, although the paperwork and process was a little lengthier than it normally would have been. (She had to provide quite a bit of information regarding her Canadian father, grandparents, etc.)
     
  8. Dckc88

    Dckc88 Member

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    Whether you can keep it or not at 18 depends on thr country. The US permits dual, but some countries do not. It sounds like of your parents have gotten you a passport and you are asking the question, then you probably know that you are truly a dual. Good luck with your decision.
     

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