Why we should get rid of West Point...

I'd like to know what Hornet and other current cadets think of the Air Force Academy. I can't and won't speak for West Point; but the Air Force Academy has generally been well received by their cadets. While all instructors "Rotate" out; they are generally very well educated and competent instructors. This includes both civilian and military instructors. Again; Hornet, what do you think of the professors and academics at the academy???? later... mike.....
 
Thomas E. Ricks: You are putting your finger on something I have been stewing about and may tackle in my next book. That is, why did it take the U.S. military so long to adjust in the Iraq war? By the time our approach became tactically effective--that is, the spring of 2007--we had been fighting in Iraq longer than we fought in World War II. And even then, almost everyone in the chain of command opposed the new attitude, posture and tactics of the surge.
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My theory is, the same reason Vietnam developed the way it did; (1959 to April 30, 1975) and why the gulf war (2 August 1990 – 28 February 1991). One; politicians/congress is TOO INVOLVED, just like now; and the other one, the politicians let the Military do their job. You decide which one is which.
 
So Ricks still contends that there is not difference between an academy grad and an ROTC grad. Don't know what to say. If he doesn't recognize the difference, and that there are differences, then he will continue promoting a "theory" without any substance.
 
I will add here (and on CC) the irony of reading this yesterday. I JUST left my Rhodes interview with 4 Colonels and two PhDs (all PhDs of course). They asked me about this article. I'm glad I had a good knowledge of it and the counterpoints that I could discuss in the interviews. :) Way to go CC/SAF!
 
Christcorp said:
My theory is, the same reason Vietnam developed the way it did; (1959 to April 30, 1975) and why the gulf war (2 August 1990 – 28 February 1991). One; politicians/congress is TOO INVOLVED, just like now; and the other one, the politicians let the Military do their job. You decide which one is which.
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A person after my own heart.... :thumb:

tpg said:
While I will be the first to state that politicians can be as dumb as a box of rocks on occasions, they for the most part are not stupid and they are not afraid to ask questions. The will freely admit that are no experts on the subject of war and they want the truth….The problem is that when you give them the truth as a CWO, you will invariably have some senior commander who is trying to protect his career who will state that “he (meaning you) doesn’t know what he is talking about. Senior Commanders job is to tell it like it is…..the truth, unabashed and up front. We have gotten away from that recently.
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You give politicians entirely too much credit. They are the masters of playing CYA, or of using others to further their own ambitions.

Yes, there are senior officers who play politics more than war, but they are far outnumbered by politicians who only give a damn about being reelected. If they have to destroy people's lives or even the country in the process, they'll do it. :mad:
 
Politicians and Senior Officers, you guys are all correct in my opionion.

But hey, let's not forget the effect of the American People. In WWII you didn't have the protests and demonstrations from a certain voter block, that the Politicians were catering to.... and you didn't have those same politicians holding political career aspirations/carrots in front of those officers either.

I think there are many dynamics to this, and the fingers point in many directions.

There are only a few that are truely blameless in it all, and I would start that list with the E-1's to E-3's, then the NCO's and SNCO's, and from their the list gets shorter. I agree with TPG, that those with established careers, such as CWO's and Senior Enlisted have nothing or very little to gain from politicking. But I've met officers with Policitical aspirations and it was disappointing to see them attempt to steer the mission to their own ends.

Along the same line, I've met some amazing officers along the way that were dedicated and loyal to the mission and their only career goals that I could see involved wearing the uniform and bringing honor to it.

So I guess what all of this is, is nothing more than a long winded way to say it's hard to put them all into one category. I'm sure there are good politicians out there also. But unfortunately I don't think they get the backing of a major party when they stick to their core values over the good of the party.

jb
 
I guess one point, there were some generalizations in the article, but this is not the first time this question has been raised.
 
Reply to Mr. Ricks by USMA Cadet

In Defense of West Point: A Cadet Responds to Thomas Ricks
By Tianyi Xin; The New Ledger, 21 April 2009



My fellow cadets at West Point, in moments of overwhelming stress and cynicism, often compare our “rockbound highland home” to prison. Like inmates, cadets are regularly deprived of a wide range of social freedoms that “normal college students” would see as constitutional rights—we are told when, what, and where to sleep, eat, and wear. Our campus is secured on all perimeters by gates and security guards and entry into and out of West Point is tightly regulated. Most of the time, West Point feels more like the Panopticon than it does Harvard Yard. Thomas E. Ricks of the Washington Post voiced the sentiments of many of my classmates (myself included) during periods of utter exhaustion and pessimism when he declared this weekend that “we should get rid of West Point.”

So why do my classmates and I still stand proudly in the Long Gray Line? Because we think it’s worth it.

West Point’s high standards of academic excellence are what initially attracted me and many of my classmates to apply. Though Mr. Ricks was correct in noting that most of West Point’s faculty lack doctorates, all of West Point’s teachers have earned advanced degrees. About half of our instructors are rotating active duty officers who bring more than just PhD’s to the classroom. Lessons about electromagnetic waves are interspersed with anecdotes from the battlefields of Iraq; my teachers bring to light the realities of war alongside abstract intellectual concepts. They are invested in us in ways that reach far beyond the report card; when we graduate with our heads full of knowledge that they have taught us, we walk into the larger fold of the Army that they are part of, and often serve on the same battlefields as lieutenants under their direct command.

Compared with the large, impersonal classes of many of undergraduate programs, West Point classes above 18 students require the Dean’s approval and cadets have the home phone numbers of most of our instructors, all of whom we are free to call for additional instruction. West Point has graduated 83 Rhodes Scholars, two American Presidents, and countless statesmen and scientists who have made great contributions to society past their active duty commitments. A century ago, Theodore Roosevelt declared that “no other educational institution in the land has contributed as many names as West Point has contributed to the honor roll of the nation’s greatest citizens” — and it is still true today.

I would challenge Mr. Ricks to sit in on one day of my classes here at West Point and walk away still convinced that my classmates and I are receiving a “community-college education.”

Mr. Ricks wants to dispose of West Point in order to trim the federal budget in response to the economic crisis. However, West Point is already downsizing; many of our academic departments and athletic programs have suffered significant cutbacks. Our Commandant recently announced future reductions in the size of the staff and faculty as well as the enrollment numbers here at West Point. But how much should we sacrifice? And will these cutbacks make America stronger, or weaker on the battlefield?

In these challenging times of conflict when the rules of warfare are constantly shifting, our Army needs officers equipped with the knowledge gained from a variety of backgrounds and experiences. West Point provides not only 20% of the Army’s 2nd Lieutenants, but also 60% of the officers with hard science degrees—degrees the Army desperately needs. The service academies alongside other commissioning sources—ROTC and OCS (Officer Candidate School from which Non-Commissioned Officers gain their commissions)—provide a diverse pool of problem solvers and decision makers to lead our Army.

Even more importantly, West Point has taught us the intangible things that refuse to fit neatly into statistical charts and balance sheets presented to Congress. Mr. Ricks cannot measure the value of the camaraderie gained by roughing through a 15-mile ruck march together one day and calculus homework the next; the sense of integrity engrained into our psyches through the Cadet Honor Code; and the ability to handle the rigors of day-to-day cadet life replete with academic, athletic, and military requirements. West Point immerses us in a demanding, high-stress military environment, and cadets internalize the values of perseverance, integrity, and selfless service among other principles so that they become almost second nature. No knock on ROTC, but West Point cadets don’t just attend military classes a few times a week and fall back into to regular civilian lives—we live and breathe military culture from Reveille to Taps (and often in the wee hours of the morning in between Taps and Reveille).

West Point and our sister academies represent far more than just service oriented undergraduate institutions. Our schools also serve important diplomatic functions that strengthen ties with foreign military forces. West Point hosts four year and semester long exchange programs for foreign cadets from Austria, Germany, Albania, Kenya, and many other countries. Last weekend, we hosted the 2009 Sandhurst Cup, a two-day military skills competition where West Point cadets competed against our foreign counterparts from Britain, Canada, Afghanistan and, for the first time, Chile.

In trying times like these when American blood is spilled on foreign soils in pursuit of lofty ideals such as democracy and freedom, we learn that some things simply don’t carry price tags. Though excess and wastefulness certainly aren’t the right answers, there are some things we should never surrender in the name of efficiency or cost-effectiveness. How is it that in a time when government is spending on programs, infrastructure, and bailouts at an ever-increasing rate, West Point is judged expendable?

West Point is a crucible that molds us into leaders of character. We cadets forfeit free time and sleep to endure pressures that most college students would never put up with because we know the payoff after graduation is something that can’t be calculated in dollars—a solid education that will prepare us to lead our nation’s sons and daughters into harm’s way. Douglas MacArthur once noted that “in war there is no substitute for victory.” In America there is no substitute for West Point.

Just ask the hero of Mr. Ricks’ most recent book — David Petraeus, class of 1974 West Point graduate.

Tianyi Xin is a cadet at West Point where she double majors in International Relations and Law. She will graduate in May 2011.
 
tpg - that was very thoughtful and I have some answers for you concerning West Point. Hopefully some "other Academy" folk can come up with some answers for the "other Academies" - Ricks only singled out West Point because it has the most famous name but make no mistake - he was including all the SA's in his op-ed.
I heartily agree with you that this was simply meant to be provacative. Perhaps he thought the notoriety would help him sell more books.

“Know yourself and seek self-improvement”.
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I think West Point does this and continually does this. This institution in continually evolving. Just ask any "old grad". Course work is modified and improved upon as is training. Even the Cadet Leadership Development System has evolved over time.
Just recently West Point made some changes in the calendar and summer training.
The academic calendar has been compressed to allow for a 12 week summer. Not for vacation but for more and better training. The number of Cadets who experience foreign travel and learning experiences has jumped markedly in the past few years.
AIAD programs are offered through the curriclum and take place for a semester, during the summer or even during spring break. There are parents on this forum whose children have benefited from these experiences. Many of the experiences would not be available to a ROTC student at an Ivy League college or any other college. Last year West Point cadets were immersed in 36 nations with over 500 cadets participating. 60 cadets spent spring break at 27 foreign military academies, about 150 study language and culture in semester abroad programs in places such as China, Morroco and Egypt. Every cadet is required to take 4 semesters of a foreign language except for engineering majors. They are required to take 2 semesters. The vast majorities of ROTC engineering majors in civilian schools do not take any foreign language.
Beast Barracks has New Cadets in the field for a week at the end of the summer at FOB Buckner. They, unlike other classes were not coddled sleeping in the bays or tents. They did night patrols, land nav and a host of other infantry training excercises. As a female, my daughter would not be able to have had this infantry training in ROTC. Her opportunities for Air Assault and Airborne, would also be severely limited and not likely in the "real Army" unless she was with the 82nd or 101st.

Do military officers benefit from attending a civilian graduate school after having learned their trade as warfighters and during a period in their careers that permits them to spend a year or two “away from troops?” The short answer is yes….”
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Yes! That option is available and a number of Army officers do just that. Each of the 32 companies at West Point is overseen by a TAC officer. They all have master's degrees, commonly from Columbia. Ivy League! West Point has a program with Columbia where a TAC earns their Master's for two years and in the second year and for 2 more years serves as a TAC. I would place a bet that all of the TAC's at West point today have been deployed at least once and seen combat.

I was very dissappointed in Tom Ricks "OP-ED" and question follow up. He wanted the defensive and got it but on the surface it appears he knows little about West Point. Perhaps he is basing his knowledge on discussions with Gen Petraeus. I have tons of respect for the good General but the West Point of 1974 is not even close to the West Point of 2009. The two educations are apples and oranges.

As an American taxpayer, I think a diverse military is a good thing. Diversity in our Officer corps is not just about race and color. It's about bringing different learning experiences to the table. Some from enlisted, some from civilian school and ROTC and others from the "47 month experience" of West Point.

Lastly - cost. Tom Ricks quotes $200,000 or so for the cost of education. This is the cost of Ivy League. Perhaps he is just a little out of touch with the cost of higher education.
As I posted previously, the West Point Army post is more than an academy. There is a lot of land and facilities that are routinely used for Army training. We should not be quantifying the "extra's" as cost to train a cadet.
I think it's a little pompous of him to suggest that all of our Army officers come to the Army with an Ivy league education. This doesn't make for a better officer - more often than not it makes for a short-termer.
Which is a whole 'nother subject that Bruno brought up.................
 
Just send these young people to "Voluntary National Service" as proposed, without deferment, by the current powers that be. Maybe we could give them all little red scarves and call them, I don't know, maybe Pioneers. :smile:
 
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