Why Women Do Not Belong in the U.S. Infantry‏

Discussion in 'Academy/Military News' started by MemberLG, Sep 23, 2014.

  1. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    2,804
    Likes Received:
    443
    https://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/2014/09/why-women-do-not-belong-us-infantry

    Author: Capt Lauren F. Serrano
    2013 MajGen Harold W. Chase Prize Essay Contest: 1st Place

     
  2. USMCGrunt

    USMCGrunt Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,666
    Likes Received:
    811
    For further perspective on this subject, I recommend people search for additional Gazette articles and letters to the editor from early 2013 on. It seems like there is at least one article and multiple letters on this subject each month. The Marine Corps Gazette is a professional journal of U.S. Marines. It provides "a forum for the exchange of ideas that will advance the knowledge, interest, and espirit in the Marine Corps."
     
  3. MomWPgirl

    MomWPgirl Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    52
  4. kinnem

    kinnem Moderator

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2010
    Messages:
    7,537
    Likes Received:
    1,001
    Great article by Capt. Serrano. Thanks for posting, MemberLG. I especially liked her summation...
     
  5. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    2,804
    Likes Received:
    443
    What is your personal opinion, if you don't mind sharing?

    We had similar discussions on this forum before so this nothing to new. I think all of us can formulate our personal opinions based on our personal experience and what we know. It is what it is as I question MAJ C's credential as his background is Marine aviation logistician, a Foreign Area Officer and an author. I am not saying he can't have an opinion, but he lacks creditability with me when it appears that he has limited direct Infantry experience. I equate this to a college economic professor telling a successful CEO how to do his job. I also questioned CPT S credential too.

    For me, like some others, I have no problem with females serving in the Infantry if there is one common standard for all Infantry soldiers. The bond among soldiers are formed and forged by common experience. I always felt close to fellow soldiers when we shared whatever misery (or experience at the same time). When I another soldier wearing the Ranger tab, I feel instant affinity towards the soldier knowing that he suffered through like I did to earn that tab. Or some of female officers I served with I feel similar affinity as they ate the same Army chow, slept in similar condition, worked long hours, went through the same Army courses I did, and etc.

    Like some others what I fear is the military leadership setting different standards for female Infantry soldiers for sake of having female soldiers in the Infantry.
     
  6. Sledge

    Sledge Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2014
    Messages:
    613
    Likes Received:
    321
    Have you read that author's bio?

    http://www.mag31.marines.mil/Leaders/tabid/1001/Article/64364/major-bredward-h-carpenter.aspx

    Air Winger, who " Despite outstanding academic marks, First Lieutenant Carpenter was attrited for basic air work and re-designated as an Aviation Supply Officer."

    I think the Army pejorative would be "pogue." Not someone who's an expert on the Infantry by any means.
     
  7. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    2,804
    Likes Received:
    443
    Something I found interesting from the above link is

    For me this claim is closer to an urban legend than the reality. I have seen some tidbit here and there about "successful" female infantry soldiers - I believe either Norway or Sweden had an female infantry battalion commander in Afghanistan, but hard to find on "success" female infantry stories. It could be a case of very few stories or these stories not getting published.

    Perhaps I am disrespecting these countries, but these countries' armed forces are better known for conducting peacekeeping operation than combat operations. We can always learn and improve, but not sure modeling our military against European armed forces make sense.
     
  8. MomWPgirl

    MomWPgirl Member

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2010
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    52
    My personal opinion is if a female desires infantry and can perform to the standards (unchanged) I feel she should have that opportunity. To call her selfish I believe is wrong...we do not know what motivates these women. Second, I absolutely agree standards should not change...if they change it will minimize the females' accomplishments.

    As for the credibility of various authors on this subject, I get that. I like to read various viewpoints on females in the military and always try to read with a critical lens. Some articles are always more credible than others, but often even the less credible ones give me food for thought. Curious...was Capt Serrano attached to an Infantry unit?
     
  9. Sledge

    Sledge Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2014
    Messages:
    613
    Likes Received:
    321
    MomWPGirl,

    Here's an excerpt of a post from another forum I frequent. It was in response to the same article you linked above:

    "After spending 13 weeks of OSUT at Fort Benning, I went to my first Infantry unit. The run paces were much faster, upper body workouts were harder, and expectations were much higher.

    "If you didn't have 270 APFT score, I was told over and over....don't even bother asking to attend a professional development course that involved the unit paying for it."

    "So I rose to the challenges, continued working on PT on my limited spare time, got my Expert Infantryman's Badge on my first try in September, 1994, for which I was immediately rewarded with the opportunity to attend Air Assault School, then CLS. I begged and begged to go to the Recon Platoon, and was eventually able to go after doing my time in the line for a little over one year."

    "In the Recon Platoon, we were expected to maintain a 300 APFT, and this was according to the old 17-21yr-old standards, which the Army later watered down after doing some studies. That was how the Ranger School PT test was graded, so that's what we were held to. If you scored lower than 300 APFT, you were literally punished with extra details, crap jobs, and assignments requiring you to do unpleasant things, like State and Territorial Flag duty in the wind for a long-worded General Officer's retirement ceremony."

    I highlighted in red the parts of the "motivate yourself" regimen that will go out the door once women are forced upon the Infantry - and, make no mistake, that's what's going to happen - no matter if General Dempsey himself says it isn't. Once the social engineers in the White House and Congress start talking about it, it must follow, as night the day, the standards will be "adjusted" to get the percentages "right."

    Then, if a female can't make the PT scores, the unit will no longer be able to withhold schools like Airborne or Air Assault. They won't be able to give extra duties, because it won't be about the PT scores anymore, it'll be seen as hazing the women, even though the practice was totally acceptable and in the case above, motivated men to improve themselves, when it was all male.
     
  10. hornetguy

    hornetguy USAFA Cadet

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,295
    Likes Received:
    129
    Sledge, do you have anything to actually add? Several of your recent posts look to be more complaining about the government leadership than anything in the military. It's entertaining, but mostly irrelevant to the conversations.
     
  11. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    2,804
    Likes Received:
    443
    Do you have anything to add other than pointing out another post is "mostly irrelevant to the conversations?" I think most forum members can make that determination for themselves.

    P.s. I am not really adding anything relevant to the conversations.
     
  12. hornetguy

    hornetguy USAFA Cadet

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    2,295
    Likes Received:
    129
    Irrele-ception? Hah.
     
  13. another13mom

    another13mom Member

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2008
    Messages:
    295
    Likes Received:
    2
    People need to get a grip. The reality is that women will integrate Infantry and attend and likely pass Ranger School. They already take and pass Air Assault with the same standards as men, and several have passed Sapper school, with the same standards as men. Let's put all this energy moaning and groaning into making the transition successful and not target the women who volunteer (or are voluntold) into the branch.
     
  14. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2007
    Messages:
    8,747
    Likes Received:
    1,002
    I guess I'm the only person here who is excited to find out the Marine Corps has its own publication; that Marines look at it; and that in addition to pictures, the publication also has words that form sentences and complete thoughts?
     
  15. USMCGrunt

    USMCGrunt Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2010
    Messages:
    1,666
    Likes Received:
    811
    Grrrr! Right now, I think rolling it tight and hitting you on the head may be the publication's best use! :shake:
     
  16. MemberLG

    MemberLG Member

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2011
    Messages:
    2,804
    Likes Received:
    443
    I think I have earned my right to voice my opinion.

    What makes you think someone of us won't put our energy into successfully integrating females into Infantry? Many of us that might APPEAR to be against females in the Infantry stated on this forum many times that we have no issue with females in the Infantry is whatever the standard doesn't change.
     
  17. Pima

    Pima Parent

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    12,795
    Likes Received:
    930
    +1 MedB

    As a wife of a now retire AF flier, I remember when Jeaanie Flynn, now Leavitt became the first female fighter pilot. It was akin to this conversation now.

    Was I opposed then? Yep! Am I still opposed? Yep!

    Jeannie and Fifi Malachoski (1st female Thunderbird) are both amazing pilots. Nothing can change my opinion on that fact. Their flying skills are amazing and they earned the opportunity.

    However, they did allow them to enter under female standards, not their male counterparts and that is where my issue lies.

    Bullet is not a small guy...5'11 @ 195 lbs. Fifi is a tiny thing compared to Bullet,.they both flew the Strike and if that jet went down in the drink or on land I know Bullet could pull them out due to the standard he had to obtain, but I can't say the same for them because their standard are lower than his.

    I now have a DS that is an AF pilot and he will have female co-pilots. It is my Daughter in law that worries if they can pull her DH out of the drink with 20/30 foot swells wearing gear and weighing 40-50 lbs less than him.

    All because the AF when allowing women into the rated world were not forced to meet the same standards as men.

    Every year this becomes an issue/discussion/debate.

    I will end my post with what I always say. I dang well know there are women that can run faster than their male counterparts, that they can lift/pull/whatever at the same level or better, so why when lives are on the line do we accept the fact that we need to lower the bar?
    ~ Oh yeah...I forgot...because we have MoCs pushing it with little to no current combat experience and they want to appease their constituents for re-election. I am old enough to remember the media realized years ago Soccer Moms were a force to be reckoned with as voters...a new constituency that could bring them across the finish line!

    I know that Jeannie and Fifi due to their flying skills got their aircraft home safely, and luckily the AF has never lost a jet where women were involved, but it wouldn't shock me if they do and the crash review board determines that the guy could have lived if they were held at the same physical standards the AF addresses this issue.

    I am not a litigitous person, but if my DS dies in the drink because the female co pilot couldn't get him, after the funeral my first phone call will be to Frank Spinner to sue the AF for allowing standards to be set lower from a physical perspective.
     
  18. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2010
    Messages:
    5,535
    Likes Received:
    837
    I'm sure there may be a few that can pass Ranger School, but to say that women will likely pass because they have completed Air Assault and Sapper is like comparing Bunnies to Wolves, these schools are nothing like Ranger School. I believe this is where the concern for standards comes into question.

    I don't believe that the "Reality" is a lock yet. The Army has not decided which combat arms women will be allowed to serve. This trial phase of women attending Ranger School is only the first step to see if it is even feasible.
     
  19. Sledge

    Sledge Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2014
    Messages:
    613
    Likes Received:
    321
    I'm glad it was entertaining.

    Admittedly, sir, I've had a few recent posts that were deficient in bellyfeel. I'll try to be less sarcastic or political. Though, does not politics play a large part in the issue before us?

    I do agree with Another13mom above, and said as much beforehand, "it's going to happen." I don't think our agreement comes from the same reasoning though.
     
  20. Pima

    Pima Parent

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2007
    Messages:
    12,795
    Likes Received:
    930
    LMAO on the bunny comment.
     

Share This Page