Women on Submarines

[LineInTheSand]

LITS - Not in the context of this thread and discussion.

Absolutely...

 

[Gray Hog]

JAM,


I mean this in total respect, but on this thread I have read different berthing issues.

Please clarify with your knowledge what the berthing issue is?

Why does it really matter?

The berthing issue is just one of a long list of issues the Navy identified as being challenges to gender-integrating their subs and they believe they have an answer. Whether we think they came up with a good or workable solution doesn't count.

The important thing is that they took all of this into consideration and made a decision that it was worth it. More importantly, they made that decision carefully and thoughtfully based upon operational considerations with the input from the professional subject matter experts in that field, not based upon pressure form politicians seeking reelection, not based upon lobbying by activists pursuing a feminist agenda, not based upon by influence by leftover diehard sexists seeking to perpetuate outdated gender roles, and not based upon the amateur insights of armchair quarterbacks on this or any other silly forum.

The professional leaders looked at all of these issues (and a bunch we could never think of) assessed the risks versus the rewards and made the decision they believe will best serve them in accomplishing the mission. Amen. [And, if those same professionals, using their expert judgement regarding risk/reward based upon operational impact, had come to the exact opposite conclusion (for now), I would still say, 'Amen.']

Now, move out; draw fire.

 

[Mongo]

"Spend all your time on the job, and that's all you'll have."

Sam, you will find that the military rewards hard work. A few are gifted and sail through impossible tasks easily but most of us are not so lucky. Yes I was in the military. Back in the beginning of females in flying positions, I had a young aviator who worked for me. Everytime I forgot something and dropped back by the office to pick it up, she had 'forgotten' something and just happened to be there also. Friday after Happy Hour at the club, Saturday night on the way to a party, Sunday morning on the way to the golf course. All the same, she just happened to be there too. Other strange things began to happen. Files were suddenly current and in order. Things were organized. Life was good. It was all her doings. She was working 12 hr days, 6 days a week. My mission then became, not very successful I might add, to help her develop an outside life. She just retired from NASA last year as an O-6 astronaut. If she only worked 40 hour weeks, I doubt if that would have happened. It was those 12 hour days that insured her one of the first female slots at Test Pilot School. After that, the sky was the limit.

 

[sprog]

mean you need to TIVO her. RHNYC on Bravo is much better if you are talking TIVO,

DVR, yes. I am no longer active duty.


Sam:

VMI, yes. AFROTC, yes. Missileer at Minot (99-03), yes.

Now I am really done, and I have no intention of addressing anything more on this thread.

 

[Maximus]

Stop making up stuff out of the blue.

Here is a diagram of a possible modification for enlisted personnel on an Ohio class sub:
http://militarytimes.com/multimedia/interactive/sub_berthing

Wiki says an Ohio class has 15 officers and 140 enlisted. This would allow for 24 female enlisted aboard. This is a long way off. First they will go with female officers and no sleeping accomodation is necessary.

Like I said, we all viewed that, what does it prove showing a 1/5 of the berthing? LOL

Again Jam, I've been on a Boomer (West Virginia), have you?

I wish I had the time some do here!

 

[Maximus]

Am I the only one who feels like puking?

Nope, we can deal with discussion.

 

[Just_A_Mom]

From today's Navy Times:
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/05/navy_women_subs_051110w/

The 11 Naval Academy and two NROTC seniors picked to be the first women to serve aboard submarines are looking forward to life in the undersea service.
The Navy’s announcement of the selections came May 6, one week after the change was made official. But these women began getting ready when news broke last fall that a change was coming.
The 11 academy midshipmen, scheduled to graduate later this month, had already received their fleet assignments before being rerouted into the sub force. Eight were to become nuclear officers aboard aircraft carriers, one was to be a conventional surface warfare officer, one was headed to the Marine Corps and one was to be an aviator.
The selectees downplayed their roles as pioneers, but spoke excitedly when talking about the challenge and camaraderie inherent in a sub crew.
“I am really excited about the leadership opportunities and the technical side of submarine service,” said Midshipman 1st Class Marquette Ried, who had originally planned to fly helicopters. “This is the perfect opportunity. The stars aligned, and I was at the right place at the right time.”
Although Ried has never been on a submarine, she smiles wide when discussing “being part of the sub team and leading a division. Deckplate leadership is exactly what I want.”
For Midshipman 1st Class Elizabeth Hudson, breaking barriers has become a way of life. No women attended the academy when her father graduated in 1971, and no women served on subs with him. Now, Hudson is poised to to accomplish both.
“If anything, he might have envisioned [his] son was going to grow up and do this, probably not his daughter,” said Hudson, who had planned on becoming a Marine. “He is excited about it now. He was able to relive his glory days coming to reunions here; now he has another five years of that.”
A 24-hour familiarization cruise on an attack sub was what changed Midshipman 1st Class Abigail Gesecki’s mind.
“The crew had a great vibe and a closeness about them that I didn’t think I would find on a carrier with 3,000 people,” she said.
The women expressed no concern about entering a community that has been exclusive to men for 100 years. They said crews were very professional when familiarization tours were conducted for all mids between their sophomore and junior years, and expect the same over the long term. Gesecki, the academy’s indoor track captain, then offered a light-hearted perspective to acknowledge the women’s responsibility in the change.
“I think it is important for us to keep in mind that we’re going to impose a little bit of a change on the sailors now,” she said. “We have to be very conscientious of their daily routines and try to make it as smooth a transition as possible. If we’re going to be using their bathrooms … we’re going to have to be quick and expeditious and not stay in there for an hour while they’re all waiting outside.”
Midshipman 1st Class Kristin Lyles added that her fellow mids have been supportive, and sub officers at the academy have been helpful in preparing them for selection boards, nuke school and sub service.
Though 11 academy mids were selected, one will have to wait two years to join the sub fleet. Midshipman 1st Class Kayla Sax was one of 32 Americans, and the only midshipman, to receive a Gates Scholarship for Cambridge University this year. There, she will earn a master’s degree in nuclear engineering.
“By the time I get to a boat, all these other women will be qualified,” she said. “But I worked really hard to earn this scholarship, and the sub force will be there when I get back. With some shortened shore tours I’ll be able to catch up with my year group, so in the long run it works out.”
North Carolina State University seniors Megan Bittner and Karen Achtyl on Friday will graduate magna cum laude and be commissioned as ensigns, and will join the their academy counterparts for 15 months of nuke school — a six-month academic course, six months of operational curriculum and three months at the submarine officer basic course. Up to eight female supply corps officers will also join the submarine force in late 2011.
“I don’t believe the Navy could have picked two finer females to pioneer the entrance of females in the submarine community,” Lt. Col. Timothy Nichols, executive officer of the North Carolina Piedmont Region NROTC consortium, said in a press release.
The female officers will be assigned to one of eight blue and gold crews aboard ballistic- and guided-missile submarines. The assignments involve two submarines on the East Coast and two on the West Coast. The larger Ohio-class subs were selected because the introduction of co-ed crews will not require extensive modifications, as would be required on the smaller attack subs.

 

[Mongo]

They have got to be extremely excited and rightfully so. And how can we not be excited for them?

 

[Zaphod]

Folks, I've been underway on ships AND submarines. On more than one occaision, we had women on a ship that was designed when women in combat was still considered an afront to manhood.

Berthing arrangements and sanitary needs particular to women are not legitimate issues. The biggest issue is one of proper decorum and behavior, and that is something only the Captain and his officers can convey and enforce.

And until our ships look and berth people like the starship ENTERPRISE, with each crewman having a suite fit for an admiral, the biggest problem will be one of controlling the urges of boys and girls to be boys and girls.

If decorum and behavior can be maintained, then women are just as good as men on a sub.

 

[flieger83]

Folks, I've been underway on ships AND submarines. On more than one occaision, we had women on a ship that was designed when women in combat was still considered an afront to manhood.

Berthing arrangements and sanitary needs particular to women are not legitimate issues. The biggest issue is one of proper decorum and behavior, and that is something only the Captain and his officers can convey and enforce.

And until our ships look and berth people like the starship ENTERPRISE, with each crewman having a suite fit for an admiral, the biggest problem will be one of controlling the urges of boys and girls to be boys and girls.

If decorum and behavior can be maintained, then women are just as good as men on a sub.

"Hmm...gee...logic, honesty, unemotional..."

NAHHH... can't know what he's talking about.



Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

 

[Zaphod]

In the name of full disclosure, I am deeply opposed to women in combat simply because I believe women are more valuable to society than men and because I believe men are more suited to combat than women.

Call me old-fashioned, but I still open doors for women and believe in "Women and children first!" aboard sinking ships.

But at the same time, I don't consider it fair to tell a woman that despite her desires, she cannot serve. Hell, if a woman can make it through BUDS without having to meet a different set of standards, why shouldn't she be a SEAL?

So I've decided to accept the reality of the modern Navy and assign myself to the shrinking circle of men for whom some level of chivalry is still important.

I now stand ready to be called a sexist. Wouldn't be the first time.