Wow, AFA Losing Cadets!

Agreed. It is a life lesson and he will be stronger going forward. Once again, the bad training behavior I mentioned was from a very few. They were probably just paying it forward. You know certain squadrons have that reputation.
 
afmom2 said:
I also failed to mention that food (or lack of) was also a method used. DS lost 15lbs in 10 days.
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The weight loss is typical during basic at an SA. And certainly not dangerous for a young, healthy person. Their weight is monitored and loss is often expected. Think of their lifestyle, activity level, and diet the month before leaving for basic. Then suddenly they are very physically active throughout a very long day and the fat is cut from their diet. Boom….instant weight loss for most! As to whether or not food was ‘withheld’, it was probably more like table duties purposely taking up too much time during the meal, leaving less time for putting the food provided in their mouths. As stated above there are good and bad examples of leadership during basic. Let your cadet decide.
 
By the PT card, are you guys referring to the rule that they are only allowed to give us 15 reps of each exercise? If so, they definitely found creative ways of getting around that. They would hold us in the down position for 30 seconds then bring us up and that was one rep. We could do 15 of those, and it would take like 10 minutes. Or, we would get to 15, and they would say "new set!" and start counting at 1 again, but still doing the same exercise. I have no idea how hard our PT was compared to previous years of course, but I think ours was still challenging (sorry not trying to be defensive here at all haha!). Then again, literally every flight had a completely different BCT experience because every group of cadre runs their flight differently. So one flight could have little to no PT while another was getting beat 5-6 times per day.
From the point of view of someone who just got out of Basic, it seems like they aren't trying to keep people around. In fact, it seemed like lots of people are being pushed out. I have talked to several people who are in the process of being disenrolled. I am curious if that happened in previous years or not? In all honesty, our point of view as basics was very limited, however from my side, it seems like they are trying to push people out due to us having such a large class size.
 
F15DOC said:
Beyond the 70 stated in the article, total estimate including Turnbacks is 160 gone already!
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For anyone reading this, I promise that this 160 number is incredibly inaccurate. I worked with personnel on a daily basis during 1st BCT and can confirm with recent numbers that the Gazette's number of departed basic cadets is pretty much spot on.
 
Interesting thread. BCT attrition at USAFA seems much higher than in CBT at USMA.
 
baileydb said:
From the point of view of someone who just got out of Basic, it seems like they aren't trying to keep people around. In fact, it seemed like lots of people are being pushed out. I have talked to several people who are in the process of being disenrolled. I am curious if that happened in previous years or not? In all honesty, our point of view as basics was very limited, however from my side, it seems like they are trying to push people out due to us having such a large class size.
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bailey - did these people say what they are being disenrolled for?
and while your class size is larger than previous classes, it was not much larger than 2017 or 2018's start at BCT, and was not as large as 2013 & 2014, who ended up with about 1000 at graduation.

and as for 2013's BCT attrition, that was the year of the swine flu - and they waived the disenrollment after 7 days of missed training rule that summer.
 
For anyone reading this, I promise that this 160 number is incredibly inaccurate. I worked with personnel on a daily basis during 1st BCT and can confirm with recent numbers that the Gazette's number of departed basic cadets is pretty much spot on.[/QUOTE]

That is great news!! Seeing that number posted on a parents FB website this morning was surprising!!
 
The percentage lost from 2018 BCT is about 5.7 percent (USAF news letter class sizes: jun 30th 2018 = 1206, aug 31 = 1137). So based upon the 70 number and the 2019 class entry size, their percentage loss for BCT is around the same.

The problem with just "a few bad apples" is while they might get a slap on the wrist from PP, their actions/decisions can have a long term impact on the basics under them. What possible long term impact? How about health issues requiring specialists and surgery, or an injury serious enough to result in a dissenrollment with no medical turn back.

Last BCT, there were a few cadre who decided their basics were making up illnesses to get out of training. Apparently, being given the title of cadre conferred upon them a medical doctor degree and thus they could diagnose a faker when they saw one. These cadre would not let the basics go to medical. Many of the basics suffered with illness for anywhere from 1 to 2 weeks and during that time, they got progressively worse. The cadre finally changed during BCT 2, and these basics were finally allowed to go to medical. Several of the basics required anywhere from 1 to 4 days medical care.

I agree cadre are human and there are going to be a few bad apples. But I do think that there needs to be a tad bit more over sight of the cadre during BCT. This whole "learn from the bad ones" is all well and good if you are fit enough to continue to learn afterwards.

I do believe most cadre try to do the right thing. I also believe that mistakes can be made with the best of intentions. I also believe that some people may not even realize they are making a mistake, and may need someone else to point it out. It is up to PP to monitor for mistakes in order to be sure they are identified and corrected before any long term serious repercussions set in.
 
I just want to ease everyone's minds for a minute before anyone starts worrying. Please understand that at USAFA, your children are in good hands. Maybe a few years ago some of these behaviors would fly, but that is ABSOLUTELY not the case now. During 1st BCT, I was constantly on my feet and supervising any free time used by cadre and walking around at meals. Naturally, there were a few corrections that had to be made, but they were honest mistakes that I would not consider to be traumatizing in any way to the basics. While I do not have eyes in the back of my head and cannot possibly know what is going on at all times, if I or any others with even the smallest ounce of integrity noticed that a cadre was starving their basics or training them to the point of severe injury, there would be significant consequences for that individual and their leadership. In no way, shape, or form would I tolerate that sort of behavior, and I am sure nearly all cadets would agree. A cadre should CARE about the health and well being of their basics, and if they do not, there is no room for them on BCT staff and maybe even in the cadet wing.
 
I agree, Cadre should care about their basics and those who do not should not be allowed to serve as bct staff.
If a basic is being told to eat due to significant weight loss, and then is repeatedly sent to the high command table for "conversation" thus not allowing said basic time to eat, what would that training behavior be called? When a bunk is made and improved upon daily and certainly not
worse than the roommates, but dumped everyday anyway, what is that training behavior called?
 
I entered as a 2019 and left the first week of basic training after attending a service academy prep school. It was not the physical demands that got me; it was the mental. They really do break you down.
 
I'm sorry USAFA didn't work out for you annalis. I wish you well as you move ahead to your next journey.
 
Some things I know for sure:
1. I don't believe 100% what I read on the internet. This includes forums, facebook, and similar. Everything has to be verified.
2. Doolies, while not necessarily lying, do tend to exaggerate certain conditions of BCT. About themselves as well as others. The environment is most times a big change and shock from what they were use to. Things get blown out of proportion.
3. Nothing, is ever as bad as it seems. Even for the person who says it's bad, once time has gone by and they've had time to reflect.
 
annalis said:
I entered as a 2019 and left the first week of basic training after attending a service academy prep school. It was not the physical demands that got me; it was the mental. They really do break you down.
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Sorry annalis. Just keep in mind all those areas in you that shine; the ones that got you appointed to the academy in the first place and you will succeed. Good luck to you in your future endeavors.
 
afmom2 said:
I agree, Cadre should care about their basics and those who do not should not be allowed to serve as bct staff.
If a basic is being told to eat due to significant weight loss, and then is repeatedly sent to the high command table for "conversation" thus not allowing said basic time to eat, what would that training behavior be called? When a bunk is made and improved upon daily and certainly not
worse than the roommates, but dumped everyday anyway, what is that training behavior called?
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I'm not sure what you're talking about. When a basic is sent to group staff, they are given the opportunity to eat. I know this by personally sitting there many meals during BCT. The top three in charge were always very professional and ensured that the Basics that sat there had plenty to eat.
As for the bed situation, I have to agree with Christcorp, especially on his second statement. Basics and four degrees may not always see things clearly. While a basic may THINK that his bed looks that same as his roommate's, it might not be the case. Having to make a bed over and over is not a training violation- it's excellence. Basics are required to master bed making as well as may other tasks.
 
Also, if fellow cadre witness bad cadre behavior and says outloud to other basics "I don't agree how basic "" is being treated", what would cause a cadre to say that? Maybe because a basic is not being treated fairly.
 
You're speaking very cryptically about what I presume is a fairly straightforward individual situation. If you'd like to discuss it with either myself or haleym, please send us a message. We both worked BCT this summer. There's no way for us to be expected to respond to elaborate hypothetical situations.
 
We must not be talking about the same table then.
I agree with practice and repetition make perfect. We are no strangers to USAFA and I am merely pointing out that there is inconsistency in training styles. There is more, but I will stop here. Officials were made aware at exit interviews and it was mentioned that the cadre involved would lose rank during the academic year. Too bad that was all discussed on his way out the door.
 
I know this is no consolation, and it was briefly mentioned previously, but I've been characterized by many as the "Eternal Optomist" because I am always finding the good when I can. If 72 out of 1200 didn't make it through BCT, which is pretty average, that is 6%. That means that 94% DID make it through. Again, pretty average.

Also, of the 1100-1150 who do make it through BCT, approximately 150-200 won't make it through the 4 years at the academy. 25-50 will drop out before the end of the 1st year, another 100-150 will drop out befor the start of the 3rd year. Another 25-50 will be let go for other reasons, usually academics. The graduating class will wind up being around 1000. This too is normal.

I've also seen most times, from those who did leave during BCT or even during the first 2 years, that it's not traumatic after the initial disenrollment. They had a very enlightening experience about themselves and the military. Some go to college and join ROTC and still get commissioned. Some enlist. Some stay traditional university and move on to a fine career path.

The point is, everyone handles the academy and military life differently. It doesn't matter if it's something they believe they wanted for many years. Until you're there, you have absolutely no idea what you've gotten yourself into. Some have no trouble whatsoever with the physical or mental game being played. Others, can't grasp the need to take 1200+ kids from 50 states, territories, and even different countries, and break them down so they can be built back up with common goals and direction as a team. Then, later on, being given the ability to regain their individualism to become effective military leaders. But in the end, 80-85% do make it all the way through, and this has been effective for more than 50 years. The same goes for the other branches of the military who have done so for hundreds of years.

The academy can never be a place where 100% of all entering make it through to the end. Not because they intentionally kick people out, but because they know that the majority coming in realize that it's nothing like they expected. Most will adapt to the unexpected environment. Some will realize that the final goal isn't what they wanted after all. It would be nice if we could see the future and take in 1000 cadets that we knew 100% would be there to graduate. That's just not how human behavior works. There's nothing wrong with finding out that the academy and maybe even the military isn't what you expected. As long as you learn from the experience and apply the lessons learned to your future endeavors, all will be good.
 
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