Wow, AFA Losing Cadets!

My bad. Thanks for the correction. I relooked up E7 and E8 to be sure they were sergeants. I had thought sergeants were considered officers. What are they classified as in the scope of things? Does a Sergeant ever outrank a lower officer like a lieutenant? (Military newbie here, trying to get my head around all the stuff I am learning.)

Sergeants are non-commissioned officers. Lieutenants and above are commissioned officers. A sergeant never outranks a lieutenant, but a lieutenant better listen to the advice of his sergeants. Decision is lieutenant but they at least need to listen.
 
Sergeants are non-commissioned officers. Lieutenants and above are commissioned officers. A sergeant never outranks a lieutenant, but a lieutenant better listen to the advice of his sergeants. Decision is lieutenant but they at least need to listen.

Thanks, so to be sure I have this right

enlisted < non-commissioned officer < commissioned officer.
Then is it improper to refer to a "non-commissioned officer" as just an "officer"?
If one says just "officer" it implies that it is a "commissioned officer"?

Thank you for the clarifications!
 
I am not sure of what afmom2 is referring, but don't be so quick to attack and silence what she posted. On my end, there is a lot of talk and disgust over in squads because of tonight and Squad 22 training from 8pm until 10:30pm with orders to shower afterward and to put on their blues until taps. Quite a few upper-class cadets from other squads are unhappy with what was happening to the 4/cs considering many are injured and all are exhausted from basic with classes ahead in just hours. Several cadets told 22 to stop training since it was after 9pm, but the cadets in 22 mocked them and pressed harder on the 4/cs because of the criticism. upper class Cadets are discussing it around and a few calls made it over to our hotel just outside of base. Some think it's funny, but most find it wrong. Also, I have talked to a few 4/c parents who are upset about what they are hearing. Really, if it's so bad that the other cadets are talking about it, the matter should be reported. See something. Say something. Today's visit for the parade and tonight at the hotel, showed me that it's not business as usual in several squads. Some of the cadets cannot handle a tad of power, I guess. On our end, it isn't fair to dismiss what's going on in several squads--22 in particular (since they apparently have some reputation to live up to) in order to validate whether or not it was tougher for previous classes. Why be reductive? Perception matters. Stop with the denial. We do not want these types of stories starting this soon in the year. USAFA doesn't deserve this kind of attention and talk...or maybe it does if the mode of thinking is that character-building devoid of ethics is productive.
Please know that this is being dealt with accordingly. Also, I do not want anyone to mistake my responses as an attempt to discount what afmom has said. I understand that there are cadets who screw up, but I think that the public should have faith in our cadet wing. We make mistakes, but that does not make us bad people. The best interest of the four degrees should always be kept in mind, and when a cadet forgets that, it's up to another cadet to bring them back down to earth. Most issues that present themselves in the wing can also be solved in the wing. CS22 is made up of good cadets and making sweeping generalizations about their character is definitely not appropriate.
 
Momba - a free app called Military Ranks is very handy. The icon is dark green, with chevrons, with "RANKS" in white.

Confusion is generated by the fact some higher enlisted ranks are NCO, or non-commissioned officer. In the Navy and Coast Guard, the term "petty officer" and "chief petty officer" for some enlisted ranks causes the same brow-wrinkling. They are also NCO, but Navy and Coast Guard don't use the NCO term widely. In general, the term "officer," when used alone, is generally construed to mean a commissioned officer, with a pay grade starting with "O." Enlisted pay grades start with "E." We will save warrant officers, chief warrant officers and limited duty officers for a really rainy day when we want to compare and contrast across the services!

Generally, officers will have authority over enlisted personnel. There are very specific cases, usually in a training environment, where an enlisted member will have what is called "positional authority" as an instructor, and it is very narrowly defined.
 
I won't retract anything I said, but I will clarify. MedB; I did specifically say that it was the academy's fault for advertising and promoting the academy similar to a traditional university. I do not blame any parent, cadet, or applicant for viewing it that way. I wish they didn't view it as "Going off to college" and more like "Being in the Military", but that is the fault of the academy and the military as a whole. Simply pointing out, that there is a difference in mindset between the person "Enlisting" and the person who received an "Appointment" to the academy. Add to that the ability to "Just Quit" one and not the other, and it's easy to see why there might be a high drop out rate.

As for going to the academy for the wrong reason, I stand by that. I'm not saying that if you want to serve, and you can't get into the academy or ROTC, that you MUST ENLIST. I was simply stating that I ask all applicants that i'm interviewing if they had even "Considered" it. If they tell me that they considered it, BUT, because they wanted to serve as a pilot, doctor, navigator, or some other career than is only available to officers, they didn't pursue enlisting as an option, then that's acceptable. I just want to see if when they say they"Want to Serve", if they explored the many ways to serve. And I've had some that were honest enough with me to specifically say that they were applying to the academy for the "Free Education". That they didn't mind serving, in return for a 4 year college education. And yes, if they didn't get an appointment, they probably would be looking for other college opportunities, because that's their main goal.

And there's nothing necessarily wrong with any of the reasons a person applies and accepts an appointment to the academy. But my main point, which is true, is.... if you don't go into the academy with the right attitude, right frame of mind, realistic goals and expectations, and an understanding that it IS THE MILITARY and their needs come ahead of yours..... then you'll have a very difficult time making it through BCT and/or the academy.
 
Momba - a free app called Military Ranks is very handy. The icon is dark green, with chevrons, with "RANKS" in white.

Confusion is generated by the fact some higher enlisted ranks are NCO, or non-commissioned officer. In the Navy and Coast Guard, the term "petty officer" and "chief petty officer" for some enlisted ranks causes the same brow-wrinkling. They are also NCO, but Navy and Coast Guard don't use the NCO term widely. In general, the term "officer," when used alone, is generally construed to mean a commissioned officer, with a pay grade starting with "O." Enlisted pay grades start with "E." We will save warrant officers, chief warrant officers and limited duty officers for a really rainy day when we want to compare and contrast across the services!

Generally, officers will have authority over enlisted personnel. There are very specific cases, usually in a training environment, where an enlisted member will have what is called "positional authority" as an instructor, and it is very narrowly defined.

Thank you. I google the ranks all the time, so the app should come in handy. I never fully understood the dynamics between the non-commissioned officers and the commissioned officers.

I am impressed with the cadet's ability not only to learn their current academic subjects, but to learn all this "military stuff" as well: the officer structure/ranks, enlisted structure/ranks, planes, military code, etc. etc. etc.... They are packing a lot of knowledge into those heads!
 
Whatever happened in Squad 22 last night is probably not worth a Congressional inquiry. Rather, it is an experience that will be happily reminisced about at many a class reunion to come. It’s all part of the experience, both the good and the bad. THEIR experience.
 
I am not sure of what afmom2 is referring, but don't be so quick to attack and silence what she posted. On my end, there is a lot of talk and disgust over in squads because of tonight and Squad 22 training from 8pm until 10:30pm with orders to shower afterward and to put on their blues until taps. Quite a few upper-class cadets from other squads are unhappy with what was happening to the 4/cs considering many are injured and all are exhausted from basic with classes ahead in just hours. Several cadets told 22 to stop training since it was after 9pm, but the cadets in 22 mocked them and pressed harder on the 4/cs because of the criticism. upper class Cadets are discussing it around and a few calls made it over to our hotel just outside of base. Some think it's funny, but most find it wrong. Also, I have talked to a few 4/c parents who are upset about what they are hearing. Really, if it's so bad that the other cadets are talking about it, the matter should be reported. See something. Say something. Today's visit for the parade and tonight at the hotel, showed me that it's not business as usual in several squads. Some of the cadets cannot handle a tad of power, I guess. On our end, it isn't fair to dismiss what's going on in several squads--22 in particular (since they apparently have some reputation to live up to) in order to validate whether or not it was tougher for previous classes. Why be reductive? Perception matters. Stop with the denial. We do not want these types of stories starting this soon in the year. USAFA doesn't deserve this kind of attention and talk...or maybe it does if the mode of thinking is that character-building devoid of ethics is productive.
Please know that this is being dealt with accordingly. Also, I do not want anyone to mistake my responses as an attempt to discount what afmom has said. I understand that there are cadets who screw up, but I think that the public should have faith in our cadet wing. We make mistakes, but that does not make us bad people. The best interest of the four degrees should always be kept in mind, and when a cadet forgets that, it's up to another cadet to bring them back down to earth. Most issues that present themselves in the wing can also be solved in the wing. CS22 is made up of good cadets and making sweeping generalizations about their character is definitely not appropriate.

haleym, back up. You aren't dealing with a 4/c and so you do not get to tell me what is appropriate. Your defensiveness is telling. Calm down and go over and investigate if you don't like what you read. I did not use any terms such as "all or always" for you to read that I think ALL are doing something wrong. Calm down. Also, sweeping generalizations? No. You took it that way, but the specifics I mention involved the people I mentioned. Again, you don't like what I said, go check it out. Don't try and manage what I say. I'm not under your training...thank goodness if you behave in such a way. Don't show the world that you have something to hide through your defensiveness.
 
Whatever happened in Squad 22 last night is probably not worth a Congressional inquiry. Rather, it is an experience that will be happily reminisced about at many a class reunion to come. It’s all part of the experience, both the good and the bad. THEIR experience.

Congressional inquiry? Wow. LOLOLOL. Nice one.
 
Whatever happened in Squad 22 last night is probably not worth a Congressional inquiry. Rather, it is an experience that will be happily reminisced about at many a class reunion to come. It’s all part of the experience, both the good and the bad. THEIR experience.

I do not think the parents in question were calling for a congressional inquiry. They were pointing out if other upper level cadets/cadre see this as wrong, what can the cadre do about it and why don't they do something? It is a very good question. What is the structure to report abuse of power in the academies? What is considered an abuse of power? Was this really abusive or just what others consider a "really rotten thing to do?" There is a code of conduct for a reason. I suspect there have been instances of inappropriate use of power in the past, and that is why some of those regulations/codes/rules are in place. I am NOT saying or even suggesting that abuse of power is frequent, only that it can happen. Young human beings are involved after all. And to be fair, those acting in an abusive way (they are still young and learning) may not even realize it can be considered abusive or crossing the line or that it could result in physical injury.

One of the things we try to do is teach our kids how to make lemonade from lemons. We tell them "learn from the crappy experience and use it to become a better leader yourself." But where is the line between "crappy" but you can learn from it and "abusive" where you can be injured by it? Some things deserve a slap on the wrist while others require a bit more punishment.

Many non-military parents, including myself, come into this with an expected level of professionalism/direction/whatever word you want to put here that doesn't really exist. Our expectations can exceed what is realistic. It can be much higher because we made assumptions. I had not realized how much of leadership development was unstructured, learn as you go type thing. I expected a greater level of involvement and "hands on" from PP than there really is. This doesn't mean to imply PP's way isn't better or right. It is just means that I have to reconcile my expectations with reality. Part of that reconciliation process include asking why, venting, sharing and researching!

Also, I don't ever recall happily reminiscing about an abusive experience in my past. People may eventually happily reminisce about a difficult situation they over came, shared or dealt with, but usually, they don't happily reminisce about an abusive situation/event.

I think most parents are aware this is their kid's experience. The fact that the parent shared the experience and asked for input/feedback etc.. demonstrates she/he understands this. If she/he didn't understand this, then he/she would be talking about who at the USAFA can she/he call about this, and what steps can he/she, as the parent take, to interface with the USAFA command structure to resolve this issue. She/he asked, what and why. She/He did not ask how.

It frustrates me when venting, sharing and looking for feedback, insight and understanding is presumed to be trying to control a child's life or live that child's life for them.
 
I find it amazing that parents even know about what is going on in the squadrons. I would never have expected my son to tell me details like this in any communication. And guess what....he made it through USAFA just fine and is successful at his job, which he describes as "blowing up people and their stuff". That is the reality of the career path that they have chosen, and to worry about whether they got their feelings hurt by the cadre or didn't get enough sleep before class is ridiculous.

Stealth_81
 
Lots of words

Maybe* I'm just some grumpy a-hole who didn't go to USAFA but none of this really sounds that bad or out of line? Like a little on the extreme end but nothing that terrible or worthy of hazing cases? And haleym's reponse was actually reasonable and not condescending or defensive?

*Not really a maybe.

(Edited because I'm dumb and don't spell so good)
 
I find it amazing that parents even know about what is going on in the squadrons.

Welcome to the world of social media, internet and instant communications ;) The reality is I don't hear much from my son. When I do, I hang on every word like a drowning man to a life preserver. There are many parents in the same situation, and we network. I know as much as I do because of the parent networks. I also read all the news letters and announcements that are sent out by USAFA and parent clubs. We don't share everything (horrified at that idea myself), but when certain things come up we ask "is this normal? Is this to be expected? Was he just letting off steam or is this a real issue? What words of advice can I give? etc. etc. etc." There is a collection of knowledge and experience that can be tapped into which didn't exist before the growth of the internet and the use of cell phones. The key for me is figuring out what is accurate and useful.
 
One thing people also need to realize. While BCT and the bulk of the academy military side of life is conducting by the upper class cadets, these cadets don't make the decision on whether a doolie/basic/lower cadet is going to be kicked out of the academy. The cadre/upper cadet leadership can present a case to their NCO's and Officers, but the individual in question will get their say on their opinion of the situation. If the "Real" officer determines or believes that there may be a lot more to it than what is presented to them, they WILL look into it. It's not like the Senior Cadet says: "This trainee/cadet is useless, get rid of them", and the Captain or major says: "OK, whatever you say".

When a doolie is kicked out during BCT or a cadet during the school year, the circumstances are reviewed by the "Real" officers. Now, the individual being considered for separation may not agree or understand the case presented by the cadre/upper level cadet, but that's expected. Most people don't like to admit that their performance is substandard. Human nature is to rationalize and justify. But the "Real" officers in charge of each squadron are not 18-22 year old kids. They are officers who have been in the military for quite a few years with the experience necessary. Same with the "Real" NCO's assigned to the squadrons. They are individuals with 10, 15, 20 years of experience in the military.

So, when stories about the cadre are brought up about their not being standards, or that they aren't professional, or that they aren't "Experienced Enough", it isn't that cut and dry. While the purpose of having the academy run my higher cadets is a way for them to gain real and practical experience for when they get commissioned, they aren't totally free to make up the rules as they go. And they sure in hell don't have the power to kick a doolie or cadet out of the academy. It may come down to a doolie vs cadre word on the situation, but it's not simply a "Real" officer taking the word of the cadre/upper level cadet and simply signing discharge papers. They do look into it.
 
Welcome to the world of social media, internet and instant communications

Thanks, but I've been a card-carrying member of the interwebs since Al Gore invented them.

As far as instant communication goes, I probably had more communication with my son during BCT than many parents since he took two phones to BCT and was never without a phone even when they had to turn one in. (Yes, my son did many things at USAFA that would turn my hair more gray if I had known at the time). However, he wouldn't share anything about problems with cadre because he knew that we expected him to deal with things on his own. There are going to be superiors in the AD military who may not treat everyone perfectly, and this is where they learn to handle that themselves. Let them handle it. It's fine to ask questions here, but I have a problem when people lash out at those who answer their questions because they didn't like the answer.

Stealth_81
 
haleym, back up. You aren't dealing with a 4/c and so you do not get to tell me what is appropriate. Your defensiveness is telling. Calm down and go over and investigate if you don't like what you read. I did not use any terms such as "all or always" for you to read that I think ALL are doing something wrong. Calm down. Also, sweeping generalizations? No. You took it that way, but the specifics I mention involved the people I mentioned. Again, you don't like what I said, go check it out. Don't try and manage what I say. I'm not under your training...thank goodness if you behave in such a way. Don't show the world that you have something to hide through your defensiveness.

Wannafly18,

The issue, if any, is being handled in house as it should be. Please refrain from instigating the argument further or aiming personal attacks towards the cadets of this forum who are clearly trying to help.
 
haleym, back up. You aren't dealing with a 4/c and so you do not get to tell me what is appropriate. Your defensiveness is telling. Calm down and go over and investigate if you don't like what you read. I did not use any terms such as "all or always" for you to read that I think ALL are doing something wrong. Calm down. Also, sweeping generalizations? No. You took it that way, but the specifics I mention involved the people I mentioned. Again, you don't like what I said, go check it out. Don't try and manage what I say. I'm not under your training...thank goodness if you behave in such a way. Don't show the world that you have something to hide through your defensiveness.

If you have an issue with how I handle training or how I have addressed you on this thread, please feel free to contact me personally to voice your concerns. I am always open to feedback. I am not exactly anonymous on SAF, and like to think that I do not behave as such.
 
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