Wow, AFA Losing Cadets!

Annamaria said:
MombaBomba said:
I think that is where the whole "know your kid" comes in. If mine vents (very rarely), it isn't because he is looking for mom & dad to rush in on a white horse and save the day. It is because it has been a long day, he is pissed off and in a bad mood. He isn't looking for answers or solutions. He is looking to get it off his chest. If I ever tried to "ride in", he would "smack me upside the head" and stop communicating with me. Having said that, as I have no military or USAFA background to draw from, when he does vent, I don't always know if this is something serious or just one of those things. I get that he has to handle things himself, and if I didn't remember that, he is sure to remind me. But at the same time, as a parent, I am concerned since he is my child. I will not try to live his life for him, but I will not stop caring about him and what happens to him just because he is now over 18.

I know if I had a USAFA or military background, I probably would not be using social media or the internet in order to understand what is going on so much. This isn't about control. I am one of those people who really try to understand. I am intensely curious by nature. I have always had an issue with "just because I say so". I look to understand the why. Who, how, where, when and what usually don't cut it for me. This is really about my adventure in learning, growing and understanding as a parent. I want to be the best supportive parent I can possibly be. By supportive, I don't mean doing it for them. I mean knowing when to say "you got this" vs. "suck it up" vs. "maybe you want to follow up with someone higher up who can advise you".

I think there are a lot of parents out there like me. They want to understand and they are concerned. Platitudes don't cut it with us, only explanations do.
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Very well said. My daughter tells me things but she'd be horrified if I tried to intervene. On the other hand, if USAFA promotes itself as a school interested in my child's well-being and in a clear line of communication with parents then I want an explanation when things go wrong with the full understanding that sometimes things go wrong and there was no way to stop them beforehand.
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So true! My daughter wouldn't tell me things that bothered her even when she was in grade school. The last thing she wants is for me to get in her way. She hasn't done so yet, but I imagine she will call upset a few times to come. But like always, she's clear that she doesn't want my advice. Heck, I used to get the death stare just for cheering for her during her hockey games. Imagine if I showed up as her Mommy to complain. She'd disown me. LOL
 
wannafly18 said:
So true! My daughter wouldn't tell me things that bothered her even when she was in grade school. The last thing she wants is for me to get in her way. She hasn't done so yet, but I imagine she will call upset a few times to come. But like always, she's clear that she doesn't want my advice. Heck, I used to get the death stare just for cheering for her during her hockey games. Imagine if I showed up as her Mommy to complain. She'd disown me. LOL
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I thought my child was the only one like this...When she was 3, she was being a stink and I put her in time out. After that I honestly felt like I should go to time out the way she tried justifying her behavior. Ya at 3! So now 17 and very well rounded I do not question her want to go into USAFA...I just worry about the Cadre she will deal with, they may end up leaving.Lol I'm actually excited to see how this process will change her to be more of a follower (she is an amazing team player).
 
I do not support hazing for hazings sake or as a right of passage. I am a grad and a parent. Be very careful listening to feedback/venting from your DD/DS. It is the same as when they might have asked why do I have to take this class in hs-I'm never going to need it. They do not have anything close to the full picture yet.
 
There are obviously different styles amongst Cadre. I can only report on the feedback I received from my Cadet during BCT through letters, and the Cadre and Cadets I met yesterday. For us "old guys," personal experiences of several years ago are not as applicable as they used to be -- it is a different world both in the military and civilian sector.

1) To the parents worried about food, etc., I cannot tell you if any flights were denied any food. I can tell you that for the Cadets I talked to, it was the opposite -- the Cadre were very aware of calorie and water intake and constantly reminding Cadets to eat and drink. Basics were weighted weekly and their diets/boost upped if they were losing weight. The Basics in my DD's squad made a game out of it, having "boost parties" every night to help the other Basics get them all down.
2) My Cadet loved her Cadre for both BCT 1 and BCT 2. The Cadre I met were all remarkable young men and women and all seemed to truly take an interest in, and are 100% behind, their Basics.
3) On the medical/care side, I have heard nothing but good things. Yes, there is still some red tape -- it is the military. My DD put in a request for Excedrin Migraine pre- I day (which was approved) -- she still has not seen any though (it was on my care package list delivered yesterday). On the more serious stuff though, they really seem to have their act together and are on top of things. My DD passed out one day, and they were all over it. After getting her IV, she was escorted back her room, tucked in by the Cadre, and they checked on her several times that night -- she did get reprimanded when she tried to get up out of bed though. She did learn that when the Cadre tell them to drink more water, they really need to listen.
3) On the attrition rate, I would absolutely wait to see the final numbers. However, what we are not doing is comparing to attrition rates at "normal" colleges. SA's have significantly higher retention and graduation rates than other universities. Whether it not be the right fight, medical rollback or disciplinary dis-enrollment, at SA's they all happen in a very short period of time for the most part. At other colleges, it just takes more time, and is not so dramatically apparent. I recently read in US News that 30% of all college freshman do not return for their software year. SA's are nowhere near that rate.

For parents of "potentials," I can only share this:
1) As a dad, whose "baby-girl" is now a C4C, I am perfectly confident that she is in good hands and well cared for -- I worry way more about my two older ones in "normal" colleges;
2) Your son/daughter is going into the military, first and foremost. The world class education is afforded to support the military. That life/commitment is not for everyone. There is nothing wrong with that, but it is something that needs to be acknowledged.
 
Rocko said:
I'm confused on what folks think Basic training is. Maybe things have changed in the gazillion years since I was in boot camp but I can promise what they go through in BCT at USAFA pales in comparison to what the enlisted go through especially if you are looking at the Army and even more so for the Marines. BCT is 5 weeks long... 5 WEEKS! The Air Force enlisted go through 8 1/2 weeks. During that 5 weeks they have Ice cream on the 4th of July, a day at the rodeo and doolie day out to kick back and relax. I know it is tough but lets be honest it is the easiest of any boot camp that I know of. Ask someone who just finished 13 weeks Basic training at Parris Island how many days off they had. Ask them if it was mentally hard. Ask them just how physical it was.

I have a son at the USAFA and another who is enlisted Air Force so I am very familiar with what both went through in boot camp. Boot camp is supposed to be physically and mentally demanding. Their lives may one day depend on that training. This is a MILITARY training program, not STATE U! I welcome it to be tougher and I'd think anyone who has a son or daughter there would also. I prefer my son have a fighting chance if he were to become a pilot and get shot down in hostile territory. If you cannot last 5 weeks at BCT no matter how tough, how will you survive in a real hostile environment?

When I was at A-day last year I was shocked at how many cadets I saw falling out of formation during the ceremony. It was a comfortable day and they were dropping like flies. I was wondering what kind of training did they go through that they can't even stand at parade rest for 1/2 hour without passing out.

Maybe I'm old school but I'd rather it be tough and lose some people than to make it to easy and do them all a disservice. It is their job to prepare them for the worst and that is what they need to do.
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Spot on Rocko. We are all helicopter parents to some extent, but there have been lots of sour grapes served up in this thread.
It is designed to be the biggest challenge these kids have ever faced, and some (especially the ones that share every utterance from Cadre with parents) have not encountered such criticism before.

The kids that finish feel a HUGE sense of accomplishment.
 
Stealth_81 said:
I find it amazing that parents even know about what is going on in the squadrons. I would never have expected my son to tell me details like this in any communication. And guess what....he made it through USAFA just fine and is successful at his job, which he describes as "blowing up people and their stuff". That is the reality of the career path that they have chosen, and to worry about whether they got their feelings hurt by the cadre or didn't get enough sleep before class is ridiculous.

Stealth_81
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Well said Stealth 81!
 
Christcorp said:
Can't say I really agree with this. First of all, nothing that's done in an academy BCT happens in a civilian university. Second, there is only 1 CLEAR GUIDELINE in a civilian school. Pay your money, you can stay. You don't even have to go to classes. If you walk in and take the tests, and pass, they'll usually pass you. If they don't, so what, you'll pay again to take the class over. Point is, other than actual classes, and actual college credit from an accredited university; and the fact that you get some "Regular" holiday, spring/summer break time off; there is almost nothing about the academies that can be compared to a civilian university.
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Maybe I haven't been clear. I'm not talking about unfairness or this teacher/cadre being harder than another. This is part of life and it's something kids need to learn whether they are on the military or not.

I was talking about serious offenses and/or inappropriate behavior. In a civilian school, if a teacher or student does something inappropriate or that puts the safety of a student in question, there are plenty of recourses at a school level as well at a civil and criminal level. I would assume that the same is true for the military. As civilian parents we just want to know that these rules that we can't find anywhere are fair and clear so that if something ever happens, my DD knows exactly where to go and what to do to report such behavior.

I'm not saying that what happened at basic reaches this level or even close. My daughter is still not there and I haven't kept up but a lot of the questions I've seen on FB basically boiled down to parents saying 'if something happens is there anything my son/daughter can do?'[/QUOTE]
 
Christcorp said:
Being in the military takes a lot of trust. Trust in those above you and trust that you can't and won't always know the answer to "why". But, that the goal is in the best interest of the individual, team, Air Force, and country.
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I once again have to respectfully disagree. Just because you are in the military, it doesn't mean that you trust blindly. The SA and the military branches are made of people, which by definition aren't perfect. If orders lead to harassment, cheating, sexual discrimination, then you have a duty to speak up, because you do not have to respect the rank when orders are against laws, rules and guidelines. You have to respect the institution and its rules. In fact that's even part of the cadets' code: we will not tolerate cheating, lying, etc. it is their absolute duty to report anyone, including someone who outranks them.

I hope that if I've taught my daughter something is to respect authority, but to speak up when she sees something illegal/inappropriate.
 
84grad19dad said:
I do not support hazing for hazings sake or as a right of passage. I am a grad and a parent. Be very careful listening to feedback/venting from your DD/DS. It is the same as when they might have asked why do I have to take this class in hs-I'm never going to need it. They do not have anything close to the full picture yet.
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I think that's when you have to know your child. My daughter never complains. She might say something sucks but she never would give me specifics because she's terrified that as a lawyer I would do something (that was true on junior high as it will be at the academy). So the day she will say something, I'll know that something major was going down.

My younger daughter on the other hand thinks that everything is 'unfair'. I've learned to ignore her complaints unless I can see there is a real problem because 99.9% of the time it's not really a problem.
 
quote; Being in the military takes a lot of trust. Trust in those above you and trust that you can't and won't always know the answer to "why". But, that the goal is in the best interest of the individual, team, Air Force, and country.
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I stand by this. No one said that the military wants a bunch of robots who can't think for themselves. But the FACT IS: You aren't always going to know "WHY" things are the way they are. Especially a basic trainee. And yes, that means trusting those above you and following orders when sometimes you don't know the answer. This is the military.

Human nature and common sense knows when things like harassment, discrimination, and cheating are going on. But what does that have to do with following orders? No one is going to give you an order to cheat, discriminate, or harass someone. On a side note, if an individual believes any of that is being done to them or someone else, they know how to report it and have it addressed.

But just like your children trusted you growing up, even though you didn't always tell them why, the military is no different. You will be given goals and directions that you don't always know the "Why" of. And sometimes, you aren't expected to know the "Why" of. Obviously, the more rank you have and the more experience you have, the more "Why's" you'll know. But it does take trust. If you don't have that trust in those above you, then you are of no use to the team. And this is where the military and civilian world really differentiate. In the civilian world, things like respect, trust, discipline are usually all integrated together. If you don't trust someone at work, you probably won't respect them and your performance will be affected. In the military, the "TEAM" is so important, that these attributes can be separated and not always affect each other. If you don't respect a person, you still must respect their rank, and you can still trust those throughout the chain. Or if worse comes to worse, you might not trust, but you are forced to respect their position and orders. The military is much more complex than any civilian environment.

But rest assured, your children at the academy are being taken care of. If they feel that something is not truly fair, if they're being discriminated against, harassed, or if they think something is unsafe, then they know exactly how to report it and have it looked into. But remember; because a 17-18 year old kid doesn't know as much as they think they do, they may think something is unsafe or bad in some other way, when in fact it's perfectly fine. There's been a lot of years of fine tuning and it's always going through the "Continual Improvement Process". Your child after reporting something, may feel that they are being blown off. "Just like you said of your other child who thinks everything is unfair".

But if a cadet or enlisted doesn't learn trust, as I mentioned it, then they really need to reconsider being in the military. Without that trust, they are useless to the team.
 
Christcorp said:
But if a cadet or enlisted doesn't learn trust, as I mentioned it, then they really need to reconsider being in the military. Without that trust, they are useless to the team.
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:rockon:

That is the true fact.

Off topic, but I think this is also a reason why they like to see athletics in the candidates resume. It is not just about being fit, but also part of being a team player, working well with others, and following guidance from leadership.
 
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Annamaria said:
I was talking about serious offenses and/or inappropriate behavior. In a civilian school, if a teacher or student does something inappropriate or that puts the safety of a student in question, there are plenty of recourses at a school level as well at a civil and criminal level. I would assume that the same is true for the military. As civilian parents we just want to know that these rules that we can't find anywhere are fair and clear so that if something ever happens, my DD knows exactly where to go and what to do to report such behavior.

I'm not saying that what happened at basic reaches this level or even close. My daughter is still not there and I haven't kept up but a lot of the questions I've seen on FB basically boiled down to parents saying 'if something happens is there anything my son/daughter can do?'
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The simple answer is report to her chain of command (i.e. teacher, counselor, administrator eqivalent) or support staff (i.e. chaplains, medical personnel). Unless things have changed, cadets will be indoctrinated to report everything to the chain of command, instead of not to report. This is no different from a civilian school, other then calling the police first. At a civilian school, a student will report to school officials. I hate assuming, but based on your posting my guess is you (Annamaria) have no military experience. So, I would tell you what is "serious offenses and/or inappropriate behavior) in a civilian school will be also "serious offesnes and/or appropriate behavior" in the military.

Lastly, impossible have a discussion with "If something happens."
 
As a side note, we're all briefed a number of times about how and when to use the Inspector General office, Equal Opportunity Office, and various other reporting sources and helping agencies if reporting through direct chain of command (either cadet or permanent party) is inappropriate. If you have any specific questions about what is considered appropriate behavior or within regulations here, please PM me.

General Williams gave us a briefing the other day about the importance of executing the mission instead of constantly looking for change. It's a hard balance to strike here, as we have a bunch of type-A personalities who want to leave their impact and make USAFA better, but it's absolutely essential if this place is going to function at all.
 
MemberLG said:
The simple answer is report to her chain of command (i.e. teacher, counselor, administrator eqivalent) or support staff (i.e. chaplains, medical personnel). Unless things have changed, cadets will be indoctrinated to report everything to the chain of command, instead of not to report. This is no different from a civilian school, other then calling the police first. At a civilian school, a student will report to school officials. I hate assuming, but based on your posting my guess is you (Annamaria) have no military experience. So, I would tell you what is "serious offenses and/or inappropriate behavior) in a civilian school will be also "serious offesnes and/or appropriate behavior" in the military.

Lastly, impossible have a discussion with "If something happens."
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My one and only brush with the military came in the form of 2 years of ROTC over two decades ago, but I'm an attorney and deal with the federal government on a daily basis so I know the rules. I also know the good and the bad. I also freely admit that because of my job, I tend to see only the screw ups from different federal agency. Having said all of that, if I mistrusted the military as an institution, I would have steered my daughter away when she was still 14 and looking into it.

What I was trying to say is that cadets and parents are being criticized for trying to understand a system foreign to them. It's a slow process with growing pains on both sides. Some people will always overreact and their children will unfortunately pay the price. Some just want to know because they want to be in a position to counsel their children.

As Christcorp said, they are 17-18 and don't know better and while some will overreact some will not report something when they should not because they are in the military but because they are teenagers and this happens in every college across America. It's especially worrying for the parents of young women when we keep reading about the difficulties of reporting sexual crimes on campuses and the military. This doesn't come as a blanket disapproval of the military but as worry and caution. It also comes with the understand that this administration has been doing its best to not only improve but to become much better than civilian campuses and this comes from a mother who has drilled every college admission counselor on the subject, much to her daughter's shame.

Finally thank you for your input on the procedures in place. Having confirmation is much better than assuming.
 
Christcorp said:
But rest assured, your children at the academy are being taken care of. If they feel that something is not truly fair, if they're being discriminated against, harassed, or if they think something is unsafe, then they know exactly how to report it and have it looked into. But remember; because a 17-18 year old kid doesn't know as much as they think they do, they may think something is unsafe or bad in some other way, when in fact it's perfectly fine. There's been a lot of years of fine tuning and it's always going through the "Continual Improvement Process".
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As a civilian with a non-military background, all the information and what I know comes from the media, on-line news outlets, social media and networking. I don't hear anything or see anything in the north eastern mainstream media on the USAFA unless it is bad news. Only if I live locally to the USAFA would I be exposed to the good things. Since my child started attending the USAFA, I hear and see a whole lot more about all the good things and positive things going on. I did not know about the cadet for a day program, the volunteer efforts, etc. etc. etc. until I became networked with USAFA social media and parents.

What are the news items I heard about through the North East media? The inside cadet informant scandal, the basketball team bad behavior scandal, and the cadet party in Boulder rape allegations. What good things had I heard about? crickets....... The media loves to cover the scandals as it grabs attention. Personally, I think the academies need to work on their PR, so the USA civilian population hears more about the good things, and thus, realize the bad things are truly the exception and not the rule.

Though the bad press may eventually be forgotten, the "negative impression" can leaving a lasting impression on the back of a parent's mind. So what is the natural question that is generated from all this? What does the USAFA do to ensure my kid is safe? What procedures are in place to protect my kid? What recourse does my kid have if he/she is mistreated, etc. etc. etc.? Will he/she be too intimidated by the fear of retribution to stand up and say something? Is there anything in place to protect my kid from retribution if he/she speaks up?

So some people may think, "so what? Who cares what parents are concerned about? Their kids are 18 and at the academy, and by golly, they are adults now and are preparing to blow things up, get shot at and kill other people. The military and the academy owes these parents nothing. After all, their kids are getting a freed education." This is all true. However, our all volunteer military needs good people and the support of the general population. Good will and a positive outlook help raise funds, keep programs in place, get people to petition their congressional members on behalf of the military and can help get "pro-military" members elected to Congress. And, like it or not and reasonable or not, we have entered the age of social media, instant news access and the spread of information. The USA public is keyed into and starting to demand greater transparency and accountability. Trust in institutions and in people have seriously deteriorated. What does this all mean? This means that parents are starting to put the academies under a microscope. They are starting to ask questions and some are starting to demand answers. So what is the academy to do? Blow the parents off or listen to what they are saying and answer/address some of the questions and concerns? For instance, should the academy address the "what process is in place to address instances of bullying/hazing/bad behavior"? What questions should the academy address? What would be in the academy's best interest? Remain silent or issue a platitude because the academy knows that eventually the "hub bub" will die down? I honestly don't know the answer to this one. Sometimes answers make things worse, sometimes better and sometimes it is a zero net gain.

The transparency issue is a difficult one. There will always be people who are never satisfied. Outside of those folks, what level of transparency will generate better support and build trust among the public without compromising the security and safety of the military/academy? I think this is an issue that the powers at be in the military and at the academies are struggling with today. So glad this isn't my job!
 
-Bull- said:
This is why I enjoy reading AF threads. :popcorn1: This is great
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Bull,

1) If you really want the full "AF Popcorn Eating Experience", you'll have to join me and try "Combat Corn". AF tradition of including fried Jalapenos in the mix. Deee-lish!

2) Surprised to see our Army friends can keep up with a thread this long that isn't in cartoon form. ;) I Keed! I Keed!

Sorry for the interruption folks. We now return to our regularly scheduled program...
 
MombaBomba said:
The transparency issue is a difficult one. There will always be people who are never satisfied. Outside of those folks, what level of transparency will generate better support and build trust among the public without compromising the security and safety of the military/academy? I think this is an issue that the powers at be in the military and at the academies are struggling with today. So glad this isn't my job!
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Agreed. Especially that last sentence. If you don't share and change enough, you upset the parents. And these kids might be 18, but the application process starts long before. A parent can find ways to sway his/her child elsewhere. Oh that school is better, you will be able to be with friends/boyfriend/you have more freedom. Etc.

If you share or change things too much, you end up upsetting the old timers. I remember when the official FB posted pictures of the Pride celebration they did on the hill. The comments were horrible. The insults toward Brig. General Johnson were mysogynistic and out of hand by people claiming to be retired or current military.

The poor woman can't win and I'm sure she and her staff are very aware that every action they make is under scrutiny. Hopefully this will allow them to lead better than any of her predecessors and I wish her all the best.
 
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