WTC bombers trial in NYC

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Maximus, Nov 13, 2009.

  1. Maximus

    Maximus Member

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    http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE5AC1S720091113

    IMVHO, Obama has made yet another blunder with this latest news today.

    I see Holder says that K.S.M. et al, will get a fair trial as is the standard after over 200 years of American trials but, K.S.M. is not a Citizen! And how can he get a fair trial without having his Miranda Rights read to him? Any Lawyer will ask to have the Charges dropped as all the evidence was either coerced out, or illegally obtained.
    I listened to the audio of this today and he (Holder) said that if KSM was not found guilty in this trial, he was confidant they had other charges to try him again on other Charges? Why bother???
    The guy confessed and wants to be Martyred; and Holder says he's "alleged" to have bombed the WTC???

    Sorry but I see this as only a political football and ultimately the Military and the various intelligence agencies will be on trial. To say nothing of having the trial yards down the road from the WTC?

    /Twilight Zone Music
     
  2. gunner1zeus

    gunner1zeus Member

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    Why are k.s.m. and his cohorts being moved to NYC? The reason can only be for obama to get face time on the networks as the leader who is concerned about fairness to mass murdering terrorists. In an attempt to placate the UN prisoner rights council and the ACLU obama is jeopardizing the safety of the citizens of NYC. By moving the trials to NYC every terrorist organization in the world will now consider the possibility of an attack if not to rescue k.s.m. to join him on his trip to martyrdom. Providing 100% security for these trials will be impossible. What can a trial in NYC provide that a trial in Guantanamo couldn't?:thumbdown::confused::thumbdown: dumb dumb dumb
     
  3. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    GTMO had a facility just for this trial that cost the tax payer tens of millions of dollars......seems like a waste.
     
  4. gunner1zeus

    gunner1zeus Member

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    I wonder where they would have built that? I was stationed at GTMO for two years in the late 80s and again for a year in the late 90s. It would be interesting to see what has changed. aside from alot more security folk
     
  5. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    The real problem IMHO is that the military trials are different than a civilian court. What frightens me is that he was never mirandized, so on day one the judge might have to throw out a chunk of the prosecutions arguments. Then add into it, the issue of water boarding. Finally, the prosecution will be required by law to hand over sensitive info, that under the military system they would never have had to do.

    Am I the only one that realized with the announcement, Obama already placed Holder as a scape goat in case it goes bad. He stated it was not his decision, but Holder's.
     
  6. Maximus

    Maximus Member

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    I'm sure Eric Holder and Rhom Emanuel (sps?) made this decision, Obama couldn't be that stupid and yes, I'm sure he'll toss them under the bus when this idiotic plan fails.
     
  7. Viper56

    Viper56 Member

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    Every day since last year’s elections I say it can't get worse. Then, last week's decision by AG Holder to try the five conspirators involved in the 9/11 attacks as common criminals was a new low. Many reasons why this is absolutely insane:

    a. 9/11 was an act of war, not some criminal case. Several years ago, Fox News analyst Dick Morris correctly stated that the Bush administration saw terrorist acts as acts of war, while the Clinton administration viewed terrorism as a game of "cops and robbers." It’s sad that 9/11 mastermind, KSM will get the same rights as the knucklehead that shoplifts from a convenience store.

    b. These thugs were captured on the battlefields of the Middle East, were not read their Miranda rights, and underwent coerced interrogations. How can anything obtained under these circumstances ever be used in a court of law?

    c. How can you find an impartial jury in NYC that’s not familiar with the events on 9/11?

    d. The highly classified methods used by our military and CIA operatives will be exposed (if they haven’t already been by the NYTimes). Moreover, their lives and family members will be at increased risk.

    e. What happens if this human garbage is found not guilty? I guess they would simply get released and meld into American society. The jury’s still out if they’ll have to register with local authorities like sex offenders?

    f. The real defendants in this kangaroo trial: the Bush administration…W, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Rove, Ashcroft. This administration has continued to attack the Bush administration since day one. This is another method to put the previous administration in the crosshairs even though they kept us safe since 9/11. This tactic seems very reminiscent of what the Bolsheviks did to the Czars.

    g. The citizens of NYC will now have to relive the horrors of 9/11, just as the wounds for many are beginning to heal.

    h. We have a system that’s been around since the Revolutionary War that disposes of this debris: Military Tribunals. Case in point—the Nazis in WWII that came ashore in NJ dressed in civilian attire were not tried in Asbury Park. Rather, they faced military tribunals and were properly executed.

    i. This circus will create more terrorists as this forum will give these killers a platform on the world stage. If they get the death penalty they will achieve martyrdom.

    j. The likelihood of NYC getting hit again will increase significantly.

    Is it 2010 or better yet 2012?

    Sadly,
    Viper56
     
  8. Luigi59

    Luigi59 Banned

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    Is America at war, or not?
    By Pat Buchanan
    Posted: November 16, 2009
    6:50 pm Eastern


    Are we at war – or not?

    For if we are at war, why is Khalid Sheikh Mohammed headed for trial in federal court in the Southern District of New York? Why is he entitled to a presumption of innocence and all of the constitutional protections of a U.S. citizen?

    Is it possible we have done an injustice to this man by keeping him locked up all these years without trial? For that is what this trial implies – that he may not be guilty.

    And if we must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that KSM was complicit in mass murder, by what right do we send Predators and Special Forces to kill his al-Qaida comrades wherever we find them? For none of them has been granted a fair trial.

    When the Justice Department sets up a task force to wage war on a crime organization like the Mafia or MS-13, no U.S. official has a right to shoot Mafia or gang members on sight. No one has a right to bomb their homes. No one has a right to regard the possible death of their wives and children in an attack as acceptable collateral damage.

    Yet that is what we do to al-Qaida, to which KSM belongs.

    We conduct those strikes in good conscience because we believe we are at war. But if we are at war, what is KSM doing in a U.S. court?

    Minoru Genda, who planned the attack on Pearl Harbor, a naval base on U.S. soil, when America was at peace, and killed nearly as many Americans as the Sept. 11 hijackers, was not brought here for trial. He was an enemy combatant under the Geneva Conventions and treated as such.

    When Maj. Andre, the British spy and collaborator of Benedict Arnold, was captured, he got a military tribunal, after which he was hanged. When Gen. Andrew Jackson captured two British subjects in Spanish Florida aiding renegade Indians, Jackson had both tried and hanged on the spot.

    Enemy soldiers who commit atrocities are not sent to the United States for trial. Under the Geneva Conventions, soldiers who commit atrocities are shot when caught.

    When and where did Khalid Sheikh Mohammed acquire his right to a trial by a jury of his peers in a U.S. court?

    When John Wilkes Booth shot Abraham Lincoln, alleged collaborators like Mary Surratt were tried before a military tribunal and hanged at Fort McNair. When eight German saboteurs were caught in 1942 after being put ashore by U-boat, they were tried in secret before a military commission and executed, with the approval of the Supreme Court. What makes KSM special?

    Is the Obama administration aware of what it is risking by not turning KSM over to a military tribunal in Guantanamo?

    How does Justice handle a defense demand for a change of venue, far from lower Manhattan, where the jury pool was most deeply traumatized by Sept. 11? Would not KSM and his co-defendants, if a change of venue is denied, have a powerful argument for overturning any conviction on appeal?

    Were not KSM's Miranda rights impinged when he was not only not told he could have a lawyer on capture, but told that his family would be killed and he would be waterboarded if he refused to talk?

    And if all the evidence against the five defendants comes from other than their own testimony under duress, do not their lawyers have a right to know when, where, how and from whom Justice got the evidence to prosecute them? Does KSM have the right to confront all witnesses against him, even if they are al-Qaida turncoats or U.S. spies still transmitting information to U.S. intelligence?

    There have been reports that in the trials of those convicted in the first World Trade Center bombing, sources and methods were compromised, weakening our security for the second attack on Sept. 11.

    If the trial is held in lower Manhattan, how much security will be needed to protect against a car bomber who wants the world to see a mighty blow struck against the Great Satan? And if, as some suggest, the trial should be held on Governors Island, would that not make the United States look like a nation under siege?

    What do we do if the case against KSM is thrown out because the government refuses to reveal sources or methods, or if he gets a hung jury, or is acquitted, or has his conviction overturned?

    In America, trials often become games, where the prosecution, though it has truth on its side, loses because it inadvertently breaks one of the rules.
     
  9. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    I believe we are engaged in "over seas contingency operations"....
     
  10. LineInTheSand

    LineInTheSand USCGA 2006

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    I'm not going to go into any kind of detail, but I can tell you the place changed since 2003, my first time in GTMO, to 2007/2008, my second set of GTMO visits, including Christmas, to September, 2009. The place changed each time.
     
  11. Kero

    Kero Member

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    Though I agree the criminal trial is a mistake, I don't understand why everyone is so worried about them being acquitted. Let them out on the streets of new york see how far they get.
     
  12. goaliedad

    goaliedad Parent

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    I think the only chance Holder has for a conviction is that the spooks had enough evidence before they took him into custody to convict (which I do think they have). If the prosecution limits itself to this, KSM cannot bring up waterboarding, or anything else post apprehension. If the defense does bring up torture, it will be shut down as a separate crime (if there is any).

    And considering how much will be blacked out of the documents turned over to defense in discovery (national security), the defense's only strategy (which will not work IMHO) is to fight this during discovery as they won't be able to challenge much at trial.

    This being said, I am torn about the whole thing. In some ways putting him on trial like a petty criminal as opposed to a political revolutionary shrinks his image. But the true believers out there really don't recognize that.

    If they can hold a public criminal trial and keep him off the stand, get a quick conviction on forensic type evidence, we do minimize his potential for inflaming his followers.

    However, I think there will be a large line of lawyers who want to make a name for themselves trying to turn this into OJ Simpson the sequel. That is where I am concerned that this is going to be a bigger pain in the keester than just giving him the normal military tribunal and prompt hanging.
     
  13. beatkp

    beatkp Member

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    Checkout the aurgument that Captain Glenn Sulmasy (CGA Chief, Law Section Professor) gives on Creating a Security Court in the New York Times.

    Coast Guard Professor Debates Use of Federal Courts to Try Terrorists
    11/16/2009
    Attorney General Eric Holder announced Friday that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and four other men accused in the 9/11 terrorist attacks will be prosecued in federal court in New York City.
    Glenn Sulmasy, an expert in national security law and a professor at the Coast Guard Academy, and James J. Benjamin Jr., a former federal prosecutor debate the question of the use of federal courts to try terrorists in the New York Times in Room for Debate.
    http://roomfordebate.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/13/the-best-way-to-prosecute-terrorists/


    A Security Court would be fine; as long as it's held at either Peleliu Island or Chicago.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2009
  14. AF6872

    AF6872 Member

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    News reports today quoting an attorney for one of the "detainees" state that they will plead "not guilty" in order to present their views on a world stage. Other than the AG did anyone think that in a civil court they would plead "guilty as caharged"? The initial umpteen million motions for dismissal for each defendant will probably take a year. Will they then motion to sever the cases? Another year or two. More years in seperate courts with seperate juries and hundreds of millions of dollars in court and security costs.

    Just think, each of these "defendants" will have more rights than a US Citizen returning to the United States through Customs. In case you don't know, the Constitution does not apply while you are in the Customs area. Again paraphrasing Sgt. Harper: God Save The United States.:hammer: I think one round is about thirty two cents but it might cost more now in this economy. I think the enlihgtened government of the Peoples Republic of China charges the family for the cost of the bullet .
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2009
  15. gunner1zeus

    gunner1zeus Member

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    AF6872:

    In these hard economical times every penny should be watched.
    A rope can be reused many times and when it's worn out it could be sold on e bay with a detailed history of it's uses. Just think of the money saved:thumb:
     
  16. AF6872

    AF6872 Member

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    And the money made on the auction price. Might even cover the cost of the trial. Have to make sure they do it correctly with thirteen turns on the loop before the noose. Then again if the head comes off (SADAM) you could get extra money for the blood stains.:thumb:
     
  17. AF6872

    AF6872 Member

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    If you like twenty clowns exiting a smart car in the middle of a three ring circle you will love this one:jerry:
     
  18. AF6872

    AF6872 Member

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    Some may have seen an interview with an attorney supposedly representing one of the accused. During the interview he was careful on numerous occasions to state that he was only a member of the team not the attorney of record representing any of the accused. As stated by the interviewer, A WEASEL and unfortunately a graduate of USAFA.

    Update and followup:

    http://hotair.com/archives/2009/11/...fenstermaker-from-gitmo-defense-counsel-pool/
     
  19. Zaphod

    Zaphod Founding Member

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    Just once per day, eh?

    I'm up to about six, give or take. :mad:
     
  20. Zaphod

    Zaphod Founding Member

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    They will be afforded armed escort by the U.S. Marshalls to Kennedy Airport, all so that Obama won't have to apologize to the world (again), this time for the people on NY doing to these vermin what should have been done to them in a dark smelly sewer ages ago.

    But hey! Our ideals will be intact! :rolleyes:
     

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