Yikes! need to understand AROTC quickly... NROTC might not be best

Discussion in 'ROTC' started by Fastpitch, Jan 4, 2011.

  1. Fastpitch

    Fastpitch Member

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    First time poster, but long time reader.

    My daughter threw me a curve yesterday and I’m now scrambling to figure out how to best help her. I need to quickly understand Army ROTC, when for the last year I thought her best match was Navy ROTC. Late last night she asked me about which schools have majors in Criminology, or International Relations. This is a curve because she applied mid August to NROTC with an intended major of Biology, which subject she loves, but she is now wondering five months later if she might like those two majors more, and if they might fit her long term goals of Intelligence better. Her NROTC Officer Interviewer in late June seemed to think she had a very strong chance of being offered an NROTC scholarship.

    DD’s current long term goal is to serve in military intelligence, CIA, or FBI, with a less formed idea about foreign service.

    OK, so if she wants those careers and one of those college majors, all of a sudden Army ROTC starts to make more sense. The reason she did not apply AROTC this Fall is that her mother absolutely will not support her pursuing a career that would potentially put her in a forward deployed position where she could be captured/tortured/killed. So far her mother is not willing to compromise in this.

    Since I don’t know about AROTC, I’m wondering if it is possible to be commissioned as an Army Lieutenant and not be deployed to a forward position. Is it?

    I could use your advice on what to do today to investigate her possibly applying AROTC prior to the 10Jan11 deadline.

    Her nephew is a MIDN 1/C at the Academy, a Trident Scholar, and billeted into Aviation, so we know a lot about Navy, but zero about Army.

    Her stats:

    SAT M 610
    SAT CR 660
    GPA 3.8uw/4.0w
    Class rank: top 7.5%
    650 SAT II Bio
    540 SAT II US History
    AP Bio 5
    2 Varsity letters Softball
    10 hours of rigorous dance/wk
    Krav Maga (martial arts)
    Yearbook photography editor
    Lots of community service

    5’3”, 145 lb, strong from gymnastics, Varsity softball, Krav Maga, and 10 hours of dance each week, but not a good distance runner

    Accepted EA to: Baylor (with nice merit scholarship), SMU, TCU, University of San Diego, Loyola of New Orleans. Baylor, SMU and TCU to not offer NROTC, but do offer AROTC.

    Deferred at: Tulane, which also offers both ROTC programs.

    Applied Regular Decision to the following schools that have both NROTC and AROTC units: Fordham, George Washington, Boston U, Boston College. She has also applied to Wake Forest which has only AROTC.

    I was thinking of trying to reach the AROTC unit commander at Baylor, SMU or TCU today to find out more about the issue of forward deployment of female officers… is this a good idea?
     
  2. hugaber15

    hugaber15 hugaber15

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    Please don't be offended

    Please understand that I am just a 16 year old junior in High School. No matter what branch of the military your daughter chooses she will be joining a fighting force. Even if right now a woman would not be deployed in a foward posiotion that could easily change.

    The Navy being safer could easily change with tension increasing with North Korea. I guess I am saying that in my opinion she should not join the miltary if she is not willing share the danger of the troops she hopes to lead. She sounds incredibly talented and can achieve her goals with the FBI through civilian channels. Please take that as it's intended and I could be totally wrong.
     
  3. Pima

    Pima Parent

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    Of course it is possible that she would never be deployed in a forward unit, but as hugabar15 stated, nobody knows what the military will be like in 4 yrs from now.

    You do not enter ROTC as a freebie scholarship. It truly is a pact with the devil because you don't know if they will come collecting. You need to be ready to accept the good and the bad.

    SHe has great stats and I am sure there is an AROTC scholarship in her future.

    I would say for NROTC with her stats and intended major of criminology I would give her a 50-50 shot of a scholarship on a good day. Biology placed in her a different pile for scholarships and now she wants crimonology, which is a different pile...one that is harder to get a scholarship from.

    The one thing I would address right now is her weight. 5'3 and 145 lbs probably would result in taping. I am sure it is because she is more muscular, but just be prepared that they will most likely tape her for BMI.

    AS far as contacting the BN commanders at Baylor. SMU and TCU they really would not be able to help you. Their job is to train them as officers, they have no impact on the mission of the AD Army.
     
  4. clarksonarmy

    clarksonarmy Recruiting Operations Officer at Clarkson Army

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    The soldier creed state:

    I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the United States in Close combat.

    Watch the video, and not that female soldiers were chosen to say those lines.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkSiThX_8p4

    If she wants to pursue CIA/FBI/law enforcement or something similar Army is a good choice, but MI is one of the hardest branches to get. All of our officers should be expecting to deploy 1 to 2 years after graduation. No ifs, ands, or buts. If that is a problem with your wife stick to Navy or Air Force.

    Sorry for the Blunt response, but Service in the Military is not a social service. The young people who take advantage of our opportunities earn every dime of what they get on the other end.
     
  5. Navy616

    Navy616 Member

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    i agree with clarksonarmy.

    If her ultimate goal is to go into the CIA/FBI then branching MI in the Army is the most typical route people take. Her main job now is to get into college, participate in the AROTC program there and get as many OML (Order Merit List) points possible. This will give her a chance to get the branch she wants when she commissions as a Second Lieutenant. My daughter's friend who graduated from West Point wanted to go into the CIA and knew that branching MI was the route for her. She is now stationed in Hawaii, just her luck. Once you commission, you go where the Army tells you, which is why you want high OML points so you can get a small option of getting the choice you want.
     
  6. montalbanol

    montalbanol Member

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    FastPitch--Norwich University (norwich.edu) has all four disciplines and a Criminal Justice Program. Norwich is where ROTC started. Your daughter might take a look there.
     
  7. Fastpitch

    Fastpitch Member

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    Blunt is good. I appreciate that.

    To clarify, my daughter nor I have any issue with the risk... but she is 17 still and needs to respect her mother's wishes at this time.

    I'm going to recommend she apply AROTC and then work out the issues in due time... that is, if she is offered an AROTC scholarship, then turns 18 in May, well, I'm sure you get my drift.
     
  8. gojack

    gojack ....

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    I did not tell my mom I was going to jump school --- until it was over :thumb:
     
  9. USMCGrunt

    USMCGrunt Member

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    Agree with all.

    My compliments to hugaber15 for the excellent comments regarding the Navy. North Korea may well call for the Navy's deployment in the near future. Also your comments about military policy changes over the next 4 years was a good one. You seem to have good knowledge of world events and have given them appropriate thought in forming your opinions. Great to see from a Junior in High School.

    Best wishes!
     
  10. DougBetsy

    DougBetsy Member

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    There's no need to re-hash what the others have said about deployment, so let me comment on what I know about the path to FBI.

    My son has wanted to be an FBI agent since forever. Before his senior year of HS he was selected for http://www.fbi.gov/news/stories/2008/september/futureagents_090908. There he learned that the FBI wants to see all kinds of degrees among the agents. However, Criminology was last on the list. (Agents said that's for prison guards.) Accounting was the degree most in-demand. (Catching white-collar criminals.) The agents his class met at Quantico were a former English teacher, a math major, and a med-school drop-out.

    You get the idea. If FBI is really one of your D's long term goals, she doesn't have to limit her school search based on major. My son's major is Psychology because he loves it and it comes easy to him. The Army is fine with that.

    Best of luck to you and your D.

    Feel free to PM me with questions if your D gets into Wake Forest. That's where my son is an MSI.
     
  11. FloridaDad

    FloridaDad Member

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    Its worth pointing out that nearly has many military men and women die in peace time as during the current conflicts.
     
  12. goaliedad

    goaliedad Parent

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    DougBetsy hit upon the most important thing - The FBI wants a whole variety of backgrounds because they deal with a variety of law enforcement issues both domestic and international. They handle white collar crime (hence the accountants and lawyers). They handle crimes against America and Americans abroad and need many agents with foreign language skills, particularly the ones that the Army needs. Not that she needs to major in a foreign language, but if she completes 4 years of college and has taken enough courses to be fluent, it will benefit both military and civilian law enforcement careers more than a CJ degree.

    Now granted, not everyone takes to learning foreign languages well, but if it comes to her easily, I say study what she loves (biology) and spend her elective credits on a critical foreign language (arabic, chinese, korean, farsi).

    And you know, in 4 years, she may have a different perspective on what she wants to do after her time in the military. She should study what she is passionate about and perhaps compliment it with something perceived to be "practical".

    As to the mother's concerns with forward deployment, the perceived risks are greater in her mind than in reality (I'm sure you know this already). You probably cannot change this (I too am a husband and understand this). Strange thing is that the perceived risks in the CIA/FBI are actually less than the actual risks (something that you probably shouldn't bring up with your wife :wink: )
     
  13. Fastpitch

    Fastpitch Member

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    thanks for your replies. I looked for and found a website that lists Army, Air Force, Navy and Marine fatalities going back several years. http://militarytimes.com/valor/list.php?yr=2011&mo=1 I took a couple of hours to go through each month, each person listed, in 2010 and 2009 to see how many female Army commissioned officers were lost in action for those two years: the answer: ZERO. Of course I may have missed one, but that's not the point.. the reality is it is very rare in the current Army. There were approx. 25-30 commissioned male Army officers lost in action during the same period.

    I further learned from speaking with one of the ROTC units that female commissioned Officers are often inbedded into forward deployed units, but currently Army policy does not permit female officers to be assigned to Special Forces, Infantry, Cavalry, and a couple of other Branches that slip my mind at the moment. This article seems to indicate that the debate continues and at some point the US policy may allow for "active combat" deployment of female solidiers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_the_military Not exactly sure what "Active combat" is. Doesn't Israel have females assigned into active combat?

    There appears to be no relevant current data supporting her mother's prior assumption that Army is necessarily more dangerous than Navy, for a female commissioned officer. Armed with this new information, her mother has now given her blessing for her to complete the AROTC application and pursue commissioning.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2011
  14. Azmomm

    Azmomm Member

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    Think and do your research - you have posted a huge misinformation. I respectfully submit 1Lt Laura Walker USMA 03, killed serving her country Kandahar, 2Lt Emily Perez USMA 05, killed serving her country Iraq.
    I, as well as many other women have served in areas just as dangerous as the men and to say otherwise is incorrect. I am equally proud of my daughter who has chosen to serve in the US Army.
     
  15. Fastpitch

    Fastpitch Member

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    Meaning no disrespect... I simply missed those two on the website I referenced. May I ask what month and year they were KIA? I must have missed them in the roles for 2010 and 2009.
     
  16. Fastpitch

    Fastpitch Member

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    AZmomm, I believe you owe me an apology, and yourself a chill pill --

    I wrote 2010 and 2009, you told me to think and do research and not post misinformation... to which you posted two KIA from 2005 and 2006... no disrespect to the fallen soldiers, but you clearly did not read that I wrote I didn't find any female commissioned officers KIA from 2010 or 2009. Where was the "huge misinformation"?
    I didn't say otherwise, as I didn't say anything. I posted what I was told by a Sargeant at an AROTC unit, and what I read on the wiki attached link about where women are allowed to be deployed. I did not create this from thin air. This was not meant as an attack on women, or to depreciate the value of women who have served. If you've got a beef with the Army about current policy on women in active combat, I can't say that I disagree with you on that, I just haven't thought about it a lot until now.

    Thank you for your service.

    A little touchy today? Stike that, I realize it is an emotion laden subject to begin with. Touchiness is allowed.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2011
  17. Azmomm

    Azmomm Member

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    If what you wrote is correct I apologize. My meaning however is this- it really doesn't matter if you are in a ship hospital MP unit, whatever, if you are in a conflict zone you " could" be hurt. I only list the two names because those are the only ones I know. I really hope there are no others but I somehow doubt that. I am probably wrong, Ususally am, but I get the impression from your posts that you are somehow shopping for the "safe" service. If that is so you really need to get more of a perspective than that of your recruiter. Sorry if I have angered you and I will not post further on this subject
     
  18. Jcleppe

    Jcleppe Member

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    I have never seen so much discussion about safety and possible casualty factoring into a decision to join either the Navy, Army, or any other branch of the military. There are risks involved with any service. While you made the point that you were looking at stats from 2009 and 2010, you need to realize that it's not a fair comparison, you need to look at all the years our men and women have been deployed.

    An IED does not care about gender nor does an insurgent that decides to shoot up a training facility.

    To many young people see the scholarship as a way to pay for college without really understanding what they will be asked to do when they enter into active duty. I'm not infering that his is the case for your daughter. ROTC is not easy, it's not just an extra lass you take for that easy A. It is time consumming, and at times difficult adding in the extra stress of keeping your grades far above the college average to make sure you get the branch you desire.

    The Army is NOTHING like the Navy except your base pay is the same, after that it is a completly different world. If she is deployed, unlike the Navy, the food is terrible when you have time to eat, living conditions are whatever they have been able to throw up, depending on where your at you can forget about peronal hygine. Throw in the chance that everytime your Oscar Mike someone wants to blow you up. To most Army soldiers that Navy ship would seem like a cruise ship. The work is long, hard, and dirty.

    While women are yet to be formally given combat branches, they are still trained to fight and have been in positions where they have been right in the middle of it fighting beside the men. Women are Military Police, Transportation, Signal Corps, and many others that are deployed right along with the men. The women that drive or command the supply trucks are in danger everytime they are on the road, they're one of the biggest targets.

    No one can forsee where or what our military will be doing after the next 4 years but be assured if they go anywhere they won't be safe.

    If your daughter decides to apply for the AROTC Scholarship she will need to get going fast. She will need to take a Presidential Fitness Test. She will also need to have a school Nurse confirm her Hieght/Weight, see if they can do a tape test as well since she does not meet the Army Height/Weight standards. She will need to schedule an interview soon after her application is submitted. Make sure you have her SAT/ACT and transcripts sent in soon. Once the application is received she will get a form back that will list the activities she listed and she will need it confirmed and signed by the school counselor. I wouldn't waste any time getting started.

    My last thought is not meant to be harsh. If you are concerned that much about safety, noted by your research, she may want to pick a different career path. Soldiers not only die in combat, they die in training as well, a cruel reality but it is what it is.
     
  19. Fastpitch

    Fastpitch Member

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    Thanks. As posted above, it wasn't my concern, or my daughter's. I had wanted her to apply AROTC back in August. It was her mother's concern, but, thankfully, not any longer.

    :redface: I guess you haven't been around many civilian mothers whose daughters are thinking about joining a service. Dad's, well, a lot of us think serving in the military outweighs the risks. Don't forget this forum is like preaching to the choir... the people who need help understanding the risk of being in harm's way are families who haven't had anyone serving in the military since WWII or Korean War.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2011
  20. hugaber15

    hugaber15 hugaber15

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    Wow!

    This issue incites a lot of emotions, that's probably a good thing. Women are a very important part of our armed forces. Being in the armed forces is a dangerous job, I think no matter the statistics if your family member is kia. It would be very little consolation that she was "unlucky".

    I want to share with you that I think I will get a AROTC schoarship but if I don't I will serve anyway. I don't think any other young person should do anything differently. The cost is way too high if it's just for the money.

    Please understand I don't think it's morally wrong to do it for the money. The deal is four years tuition for eight years service. I am just saying that if your reasoning is just the money it's a bad deal for you. I wish you and your daughter the best on your journey.
     

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