ROTC vs SA Difference?

[gojack]

A case can be made...
particularity if you factory in student debt and % of graduates who are employed after graduation

West Point excels in most measures. It graduates 80% of its students in four years. It is fourth in winners of Rhodes scholarships since 1923 (ahead of Stanford), sixth in Marshalls since 1982 (ahead of Columbia and Cornell) and fourth in Trumans since 1992 (ahead of Princeton and Duke). This year 4 out of 37 Gates scholars, who earn a full ride to study at the University of Cambridge in England, graduated from the service academies. The Gates roster includes four Yale grads, one from Harvard and none from Princeton.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/08...t-college.html

[Moosestache]

Originally Posted by gojack

A case can be made...
particularity if you factory in student debt and % of graduates who are employed after graduation

West Point excels in most measures. It graduates 80% of its students in four years. It is fourth in winners of Rhodes scholarships since 1923 (ahead of Stanford), sixth in Marshalls since 1982 (ahead of Columbia and Cornell) and fourth in Trumans since 1992 (ahead of Princeton and Duke). This year 4 out of 37 Gates scholars, who earn a full ride to study at the University of Cambridge in England, graduated from the service academies. The Gates roster includes four Yale grads, one from Harvard and none from Princeton.

http://www.forbes.com/forbes/2009/08...t-college.html

I'm in the wrong place to argue against West Point, and I certainly wouldn't say it is anything but an excellent school, but I have never read any reviews that put it in the same class as the top 10 or 15 colleges/universities.

[armydaughter]

Originally Posted by Moosestache

I'm in the wrong place to argue against West Point, and I certainly wouldn't say it is anything but an excellent school, but I have never read any reviews that put it in the same class as the top 10 or 15 colleges/universities.

Forbes list put it #1.

[Aglahad]

Originally Posted by armydaughter

Forbes list put it #1.

It's high on Forbes list because of the lack of debt and graduation rates. No doubt it is one of the best schools in the nation, but is it the best? Ehh I would venture to say MIT and Stanford (and a few others) are better particularly because of their sciences and research.

[scoutpilot]

Originally Posted by Moosestache

I'm in the wrong place to argue against West Point, and I certainly wouldn't say it is anything but an excellent school, but I have never read any reviews that put it in the same class as the top 10 or 15 colleges/universities.

You probably weren't reading the lists very closely. In most cases, the lists are broken down by the highest degree offered. Thus, all the Ivies will be in a different category, because they offer doctoral degrees.

You have to look at the criteria. Often, measures of how those top schools are ranked rely heavily on things WP doesn't qualify for (research dollars, etc.).

The other question is, what makes a "great school"? What makes your examples, say MIT, a better undergraduate institution? What does a student get after four years of education at MIT that they don't get out of USMA? Or USNA? Given that the Rhodes Foundation has offered a Rhodes Scholarship to more USMA cadets than they have to MIT or Stanford or Duke or any school except the top 3 Ivies. Obviously at least one respected organization in the business of evaluating the educational product of universities find USMA to most certainly be among the "top 10 or 15 schools."

Perhaps you should answer the question from the other side...why do you believe USMA is NOT among the top 10 or 15 schools?

[armydaughter]

Originally Posted by Aglahad

It's high on Forbes list because of the lack of debt and graduation rates. No doubt it is one of the best schools in the nation, but is it the best? Ehh I would venture to say MIT and Stanford (and a few others) are better particularly because of their sciences and research.

That's a hard comparison. The Princeton Review lists it as #14 among national liberal arts colleges. I don't know why they would call it a LA college.

[scoutpilot]

Originally Posted by armydaughter

That's a hard comparison. The Princeton Review lists it as #14 among national liberal arts colleges. I don't know why they would call it a LA college.

Because the curriculum has a very notable LA flavor to it.

[Moosestache]

Originally Posted by scoutpilot

You probably weren't reading the lists very closely. In most cases, the lists are broken down by the highest degree offered. Thus, all the Ivies will be in a different category, because they offer doctoral degrees.

You have to look at the criteria. Often, measures of how those top schools are ranked rely heavily on things WP doesn't qualify for (research dollars, etc.).

The other question is, what makes a "great school"? What makes your examples, say MIT, a better undergraduate institution? What does a student get after four years of education at MIT that they don't get out of USMA? Or USNA? Given that the Rhodes Foundation has offered a Rhodes Scholarship to more USMA cadets than they have to MIT or Stanford or Duke or any school except the top 3 Ivies. Obviously at least one respected organization in the business of evaluating the educational product of universities find USMA to most certainly be among the "top 10 or 15 schools."

Perhaps you should answer the question from the other side...why do you believe USMA is NOT among the top 10 or 15 schools?

US News also has it 14 among National Liberal Arts Schools. It also has it ranked very highly in the engineering departments for colleges that don't offer doctorates. However, that is sort of a backhanded compliment because all of the top engineering schools offer doctorates.

USMA doesn't have the world's best professors and the world's best facilities, like some of the other top schools do, but that takes nothing at all away from the students. There are other reasons that some of the top students in the country go to the Service Academies, and those young men and women are the reason so many award winners come from the USMA.

[scoutpilot]

Originally Posted by Moosestache

US News also has it 14 among National Liberal Arts Schools. It also has it ranked very highly in the engineering departments for colleges that don't offer doctorates. However, that is sort of a backhanded compliment because all of the top engineering schools offer doctorates.

USMA doesn't have the world's best professors and the world's best facilities, like some of the other top schools do, but that takes nothing at all away from the students. There are other reasons that some of the top students in the country go to the Service Academies, and those young men and women are the reason so many award winners come from the USMA.

What makes the "world's best professors" for the undergraduate level? Remember we're comparing undergraduate institutions here, not what the institutions offer at the graduate and doctoral level.

Tell me about the facilities. What do you know about them? What makes an undergraduate facility world class? How do the facilities at USMA compare to those at Stanford or MIT for their undergraduates?

You make a lot of proclamations about what you think USMA does and doesn't offer compared to the schools you've grown up thinking are "the best." But what metrics are you using to compare them, beyond preconceived notions?

[Moosestache]

Originally Posted by scoutpilot

What makes the "world's best professors" for the undergraduate level? Remember we're comparing undergraduate institutions here, not what the institutions offer at the graduate and doctoral level.

Tell me about the facilities. What do you know about them? What makes an undergraduate facility world class? How do the facilities at USMA compare to those at Stanford or MIT for their undergraduates?

You make a lot of proclamations about what you think USMA does and doesn't offer compared to the schools you've grown up thinking are "the best." But what metrics are you using to compare them, beyond preconceived notions?

Are you trying to be serious or just silly? You obviously know nothing about these schools, and are just being difficult. I am 45, have attended some of those schools, and know lots of other people who have. You questioned rankings, and when we shared them with you, you still ignored them. You hang your hat on a forbes article, which, if you read it, included a number of negative opinions of the USMA, and in the end ranked them highly because of their high graduation rate, high employment after school, and 0 cost, which of course, goes hand in hand with attending one of them.