Been a tough stretch

[Jcleppe]

Originally Posted by scoutpilot

I think you know that's not at all what Bruno was saying. We can all agree or disagree about who deserves the bigger pat on the back.

Right now, though, some parent's kid is humping up a goat trail in the dark, with the very real and all to frequent possibility that an IED or modified mine may rip apart his body. The same body his mother held and washed and hugged. That man deserves our thoughts, prayers, and concern. He's not the only one, but he is increasingly being forgotten. That's what Bruno was saying.

I like the way you said it better, and I completly agree with you.

[Bullet]

Originally Posted by scoutpilot

Well see, Pops, you sorta did.

Ok, gotta admit it. That reference to "Pops" made me spew up a little of my daily Ensure all over my key-board. At least I didn't get any in my bowl of stewed prunes....

Originally Posted by scoutpilot

Tell me, from your knowledge, where can MEDEVAC not go?

Raises hand violently up, waves it, and shouts "Oooh, Oooh, Oooh! Mr. Kotter! Mr. Kotter! (homage to Arnold Horseshack, and the actor who played him who just passed away this week. I know, a 70s reference. There I go, showing my age again )

Well, Junior, you know just as well as I do that Army Medevac helicopters are not allowed (which is the word I used, since you're trying (poorly) to confuse the situation with where they can't) to go: into a active LZ that's taking fire without having an armed escort. That Red Cross painted on the nose and side, and Army policy that birds that have these markings won't be armed, prevents them from entering areas unescorted that a Pace Hawk crew frequently enters into. Some cultural roadblocks within the Army that makes them hesitant to use Pedros instead also add to the issue, and led to the tragic situation for SPC Chazray Clark

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/red...ure/page-3.htm

Funny that a young snake eater like you wasn't aware of this? Oh well, I do my best to educate the ignorant too busy worrying about their small (but very crucial) piece of the war effort to learn that there is a great big world out there at the tactical, operational, and strategic level involved in today's fight. Even that kid driving that bus at Ramstein plays a part. I'm not worried, eventually you'll get to CGSC and get more ed-u-macated...

Originally Posted by scoutpilot

What units have ALOs on the ground at the tactical level? I mean, you quoted it as fact, so you must know. Right?

Woah, all this back and forth on the internets-thing-a-ma-gig has made me lose the charge on my power scooter! Thank goodness my Life-Alert is handy. Give me a sec while I plug it in. Why don't you look up some Lady Gag-Gag music video-what-cha-ma-callits while I'm gone...

....... (elevator music plays in background)

There, that's better!

Ok, back to your ALO questions. I will grant you that the ALOs aren't out in the front lines at the troop level like back in my day as one (Part of Custer's Cavalry brigade, didn't work out so well). Well, here you go again! (Reagan reference, I'm on a roll). In a non-contingous battle space such as we currently face down range (another thing you'll learn about at CGSC), the tactical FIGHT can come at any time and place, regardless of level of the unit that is involved ("Wait, you can shoot at us! We're the Brigade TOC!") Are there ALOs walking those patrols in the mountain passes on the Pakistani / Afghan border? Nah, just our ETACs and JTAC qualified CCT guys. Does this mean that one of the ALOs won't see a fire-fight or a coordinated attack while he's part of an convoy somewhere going from point A to point B checking on his troops? While there is a very small chance of this happening, there IS a chance. (And btw, look up where most of our casualties are coming from over there. Hint: it ain't the from the snake-eaters, its the everyday regular Joe SUPPORTING the snake-eaters, getting hit by IEDs.)

BTW, I DO agree with you that guys at the very pointy end should be getting the lion share of the recognition and glory. What I didn't agree with you on was your assertion that Air Force aircrews weren't at the pointy end. How hard is it to admit you were wrong on that part? Apparently, very.

Originally Posted by scoutpilot

I'm sure you got your war hero time in your day. Was that the question?

Yeah, Alexander the Great was very appreciate of my services to him. Particularly like my idea about the elephants.

The only one on here worrying about "war-hero" time and whom knows what is what in the "real fight" is you. Too bad you're incorrect in your assumptions on it.

Now look what you've done! Made me miss my Matlock re-run. Gotta go. Oh, and get off my lawn!

[Bullet]

Originally Posted by scoutpilot

Right now, though, some parent's kid is humping up a goat trail in the dark, with the very real and all to frequent possibility that an IED or modified mine may rip apart his body. The same body his mother held and washed and hugged. That man deserves our thoughts, prayers, and concern. He's not the only one, but he is increasingly being forgotten. That's what Bruno was saying.

Something we DO agree on. Nicely stated.

[flieger83]

THIS IS HEADDANCER ON GUARD:

"KNOCK IT OFF, KNOCK IT OFF, KNOCK IT OFF!"

Headdancer: OUT.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

[scoutpilot]

Originally Posted by Bullet

Well, Junior, you know just as well as I do that Army Medevac helicopters are not allowed (which is the word I used, since you're trying (poorly) to confuse the situation with where they can't) to go: into a active LZ that's taking fire without having an armed escort. That Red Cross painted on the nose and side, and Army policy that birds that have these markings won't be armed, prevents them from entering areas unescorted that a Pace Hawk crew frequently enters into. Some cultural roadblocks within the Army that makes them hesitant to use Pedros instead also add to the issue, and led to the tragic situation for SPC Chazray Clark

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/red...ure/page-3.htm

Funny that a young snake eater like you wasn't aware of this? Oh well, I do my best to educate the ignorant too busy worrying about their small (but very crucial) piece of the war effort to learn that there is a great big world out there at the tactical, operational, and strategic level involved in today's fight. Even that kid driving that bus at Ramstein plays a part. I'm not worried, eventually you'll get to CGSC and get more ed-u-macated...

I figured you'd bring that over-wrought situation up. Why you'd think I hadn't heard of it, I have no idea. It's been talked about everywhere, including this site.

While Mr. Yon's prose about Clark has raised some eyebrows, it's important to note a few things. First among those is that Mr. Yon, while a nice guy, writes most of his work freelance. That means he is beholden to no editor or publication. That means he has unlimited license and no backstop. Something to bear in mind.

So let's talk MEDEVAC for a second.

First and foremost, there is "doctrine" and "policy" and there is what actually happens.

1. The "armed escort" requirement is loosely defined and very flexible. What counts as an armed escort? Whatever the commander says counts as an armed escort. It need not be an Apache or Kiowa or Marine Cobra. The most common dash2 for a MEDEVAC ship is another UH-60, the slick variety, with two door gunners. So the idea that MEDEVAC is limited by attack assets is false (it's an idea that Yon's writing has led to).

2. The secure LZ question is always an interesting one. Who determines if the LZ is secure? Two people: the ground commander and the MEDEVAC pilot-in-command. Many a time there has been a call in which the MEDEVAC pilots very carefully prompt the commander on the ground to say that the LZ itself is secure. Sure, 10 feet outside the LZ may be a world of ****, but the LZ is secure and the med bird goes wheels down.

3. So how do we get a patient out of a hot LZ that the ground commander won't call secure? The easiest answer is CASEVAC, which can be done on any UH-60, UH-1, or CH-47. They outnumber MEDEVAC birds by 4-to-1 in any given battlespace. MEDEVAC can also supplementally be done on any SOF lift airframe, with enroute care from SOF medics.

4. The miniguns on a Pave Hawk are nice. But they bring their own problems. You put an aircraft with very little SA into a brownout condition with the capability to dump several thousand rounds per minute off each side and the ground commander suddenly has a whole new problem set to consider. The last thing you want is an aircrew who can't quite tell who's who and doesn't know the full ground force disposition spraying metal.

MEDEVAC is a strange animal and has as many nuances as their are brigade commanders. However, to say that there's someplace that Pave Squawks can go that an Army meatwagon isn't allowed is misleading. That's not to take anything away from the work the HH-60s have done, and will continue to do. We're always happy for more bodies, so if the Air Force thinks they're worth it, they can certainly send more. No one here would complain.

So, you know, there's what you "know" and there's Afghanistan.

Originally Posted by bullet

Ok, back to your ALO questions. I will grant you that the ALOs aren't out in the front lines at the troop level like back in my day as one

Oh, ok, I'm glad you said that. I was confused from before, when you said...

Originally Posted by bullet

Our ALOs (mostly aircrew, mostly involved in Afghanistan from the front lines on the ground)

Someone gave me a hard time before about supposedly backpedaling...

Originally Posted by bullet

Does this mean that one of the ALOs won't see a fire-fight or a coordinated attack while he's part of an convoy somewhere going from point A to point B checking on his troops? While there is a very small chance of this happening, there IS a chance. (And btw, look up where most of our casualties are coming from over there. Hint: it ain't the from the snake-eaters, its the everyday regular Joe SUPPORTING the snake-eaters, getting hit by IEDs.

Um, sure...by that logic, the TCN guy who empties the Port-a-john next to the Brigade TOC is at the pointy end, too.

BTW, I DO agree with you that guys at the very pointy end should be getting the lion share of the recognition and glory. What I didn't agree with you on was your assertion that Air Force aircrews weren't at the pointy end. How hard is it to admit you were wrong on that part? Apparently, very.

If I was wrong, I'd admit it. But I'm not, as far as I can see. Sure, we can talk about the handful of Air Force Pave Hawk guys flying sorties (I think they're still maintaining 4 ships in country, though feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken, as they are down south). If you think that 8 or so people flying down where the bullets are justifies the broad categorization that Air Force aircrews are at the "pointy end" then we'll just have to disagree like gentlemen.

[raimius]

Originally Posted by flieger83

THIS IS HEADDANCER ON GUARD:

"KNOCK IT OFF, KNOCK IT OFF, KNOCK IT OFF!"

Headdancer: OUT.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

TWO, KNOCK IT OFF.


This thread is FAR too much pissing match, and FAR too little about honoring the fallen.

[flieger83]

Originally Posted by raimius

TWO, KNOCK IT OFF.


This thread is FAR too much pissing match, and FAR too little about honoring the fallen.

Da**...where's my "LIKE" button??

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

[scoutpilot]

Originally Posted by flieger83

Da**...where's my "LIKE" button??

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

Dunno, but based on today's market, your "like" button is only worth half what it was at the IPO...

[scoutpilot]

It's been released now that the aircraft was from A/2-25 Aviation Regiment, 25th Combat Aviation Brigade, 25ID based at Schofield Barracks, HI.

This is the second aircraft and crew that battalion has lost this deployment. In April, a 2-25 AVN Blackhawk crashed, killing all four on board. That aircraft went down due to bad weather (though the Taliban naturally claimed otherwise). They were flying armed chase for a MEDEVAC bird that launched to extract wounded Afghan police officers.