Last year for USAFAPS?

recon4ds said:

Disclaimer: I hope I copied this correctly from the previous post.

Yes, no question. The ROI must be considered. However, I think that my point was not fully addressed. What I am saying is that the ROI should be considered in the milieu of factors in evaluating the effectiveness of the Prep School, but issues about considering whether the Prep School should be in existence cannot be distilled down to the ROI alone. If the Prep School has unacceptable graduation rates at the SA, than the administration of the Prep School should be tasked with improving their graduation rate. That is a totally different issue than getting rid of the Prep School.

You seem to agree, in part, with this assessment. The reason I say so is because you do recognize that the SA's themselves do have value beyond their ROI. I am saying the same thing about the Prep School.

Additionally, I am aware of the argument to get rid of the SA's, also largely based on the ROI, and I am also aware of the comparison of the ROI's between the SA's, ROTC and OCS. My problem is that I am not impressed by "smart people."

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If you don't have a dog in the fight it is easier to absorb what the naysayers of SA's are saying. They do have some valid points. But like many debates, the correct answer is somewhere in between the two points of view.

At the end of the day, I want our country to have a World Class military and I support that approach. I want complete confidence that we are going to win. If I was at the helm, I would want to execute that plan as efficiently as possible.

Well, if any more cuts are coming, they're going to have to be on the Acadamy side. AFROTC cut summer programs and extra training except FT a long time ago, and its hard enough to get an EA for that. I learned at NSO this weekend from our cadre that CC has said there will be no in college scholarships this year, there's no money for it. Of course, this is the military so they can be told today that we dont have any and get a notice tomorrow saying "Guess what, we found some money for scholarships...!", but for now they are on hold...unless you're at a college with a large ROTC endowment. AFROTC really has no fat to trim, unless they want to cut into the 1000~ HSSP they give out per year, and from what I hear OTS may in a similar boat.

After reading Christcorps posts, I can see where the prep school has a fair amount of value, not just for the AFA but for big AF as well. The question I would have is if the prep school, in its current state, is important enough to the overall mission of enrichment of the Officer Corps to be spared by the chopping block, what program(s) would you have take its place? And I understand that the biggest main purpose for the prep school is to give enlisted better chances of getting in the academy, but isn't the overal goal of the academy to produce quality leaders for the AF?? Wouldn't a much cheaper way to complete the ultimate goal be to close the prep school and instead open up more slots for OTS? They can still get the appropriate schooling on the AF's dime if they can't get a direct appointment to the AFA, but it would be a lot cheaper to pay for tuition at X university.

I do believe that the AFA serves a purpose and am happy that it exists, so dont think im just some bitter AFROTC cadet. I just wonder if there is a better means to add to the joint mission of AFA/AFROTC/OTS other than the prep school while still maintaining the prior E part of diversity. I mean, at the end of the day, isn't the main goal ultimately to create quality leaders for the Air Force, not quality candidates for the AFA???

The OP is a graduate of the prep school. Understandably his viewpoint is biased and so are others that feel it serves an important role. There have been very good reasons cited as to why that is but we cannot ignore the flip side that some view it as expendable. What is the worst case scenario if they indeed eliminate the government funded USAFA Prep? What would admissions have to do to to garner the next class of best qualified appointees including prior active and stand out athletes to fulfill their mission?

burnerafter16 said:

The OP is a graduate of the prep school. Understandably his viewpoint is biased and so are others that feel it serves an important role.

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Evidently so was the following poster.

AFrpaso said:

I hate to say it, but I really don't think the Preparatory School's main mission is to send prior enlisted Airmen up to the Academy. It may be a small part, but now it just seems like a red shirt program for athletes dominates.

Spending last year there definitely opened my eyes to some trends but I'd rather not speak of them publicly. If anyone is curious, please don't hesitate to shoot me a PM.

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I can understand the need for prior enlisted and recruited athletes to get prepared for the rigors of academy life for the reasons given.
What is the purpose for the rest who are not?
Has there ever been a shortage of qualified candidates in the past that they have to stockpile applicants with potential for the following year?

24601 said:

I can understand the need for prior enlisted and recruited athletes to get prepared for the rigors of academy life for the reasons given.
What is the purpose for the rest who are not?
Has there ever been a shortage of qualified candidates in the past that they have to stockpile applicants with potential for the following year?

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The rest are considered with the intention to enhance diversity at the Air Force Academy.

MN-Dad-2016 said:

If you don't have a dog in the fight it is easier to absorb what the naysayers of SA's are saying. They do have some valid points. But like many debates, the correct answer is somewhere in between the two points of view.

At the end of the day, I want our country to have a World Class military and I support that approach. I want complete confidence that we are going to win. If I was at the helm, I would want to execute that plan as efficiently as possible.

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Thanks for the help with the quote button. What a crack-up, as my wife would say, "it's right in front of you, dummy."

As far as the quote in question, I absolutely agree, and it is healthy to consider different perspectives.

LFry94 said:

The rest are considered with the intention to enhance diversity at the Air Force Academy.

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If this were true, what you're trying to say is admissions is not doing their job.
No wonder the government funded prep is rumoured to be shut down. If there are private prep schools where applicants are willing to pay their own way to leverage better odds of getting accepted, your stated reason above could easily be remedied by slight adjustments by admissions to begin with. Prior enlisted and athletes should remain but I don't see the need to waste money on others that can go through the direct route and compete like everyone else.

24601 said:

If this were true, what you're trying to say is admissions is not doing their job.
No wonder the government funded prep is rumoured to be shut down. If there are private prep schools where applicants are willing to pay their own way to leverage better odds of getting accepted, your stated reason above could easily be remedied by slight adjustments by admissions to begin with. Prior enlisted and athletes should remain but I don't see the need to waste money on others that can go through the direct route and compete like everyone else.

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I think you misunderstood the definition of a diversity applicant. The Air Force Academy looks for people of all locations, races, religious backgrounds, struggles, talents, and life experiences with the intention of building a well-rounded corps of Air Force officers. With these intentions in mind, you must remember that not everyone can afford a top notch high school education to give them that shiny package colleges give out scholarships for. Some students don't have the opportunity to become an eagle scout, or go to boy's state, or play high school sports for four years. However, these people have endured hardships others have never known, and I think these people have a lot to offer our military. The prep school offers these applicants an opportunity to show they have what it takes, and to strengthen themselves academically. Am I biased as a prep school graduate? Of course. But I've also seen the caliber of people the prep school sends to the Academy.

In the end, I have no control over the decision. But if they do choose to keep the prep school around, I hope to visit one day and share my own experiences with them. And I hope you don't hold that against me.

Nicely said, LFry.

LFry94 said:

I think you misunderstood the definition of a diversity applicant. The Air Force Academy looks for people of all locations, races, religious backgrounds, struggles, talents, and life experiences with the intention of building a well-rounded corps of Air Force officers.
Am I biased as a prep school graduate? Of course. But I've also seen the caliber of people the prep school sends to the Academy.
In the end, I have no control over the decision. But if they do choose to keep the prep school around, I hope to visit one day and share my own experiences with them. And I hope you don't hold that against me.

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This would make a strong case for sparing it from the mothballs. It opens up a perspective that it may serve a noble cause. I just hope that you along with other prep graduates prove past statistics wrong and actually do well and stay for the long haul. Respect all, Fear none......(except Bratka)

LFry94 said:

I think you misunderstood the definition of a diversity applicant. The Air Force Academy looks for people of all locations, races, religious backgrounds, struggles, talents, and life experiences with the intention of building a well-rounded corps of Air Force officers. With these intentions in mind, you must remember that not everyone can afford a top notch high school education to give them that shiny package colleges give out scholarships for. Some students don't have the opportunity to become an eagle scout, or go to boy's state, or play high school sports for four years. However, these people have endured hardships others have never known, and I think these people have a lot to offer our military. The prep school offers these applicants an opportunity to show they have what it takes, and to strengthen themselves academically. Am I biased as a prep school graduate? Of course. But I've also seen the caliber of people the prep school sends to the Academy.

In the end, I have no control over the decision. But if they do choose to keep the prep school around, I hope to visit one day and share my own experiences with them. And I hope you don't hold that against me.

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Do you really believe the execution matches the intent? Which category do you fall under? There is an old saying that if I don't have nothing nice to say I should not say anything. That doesn't mean I can't ask questions.

MemberLG said:

Do you really believe the execution matches the intent? Which category do you fall under? There is an old saying that if I don't have nothing nice to say I should not say anything. That doesn't mean I can't ask questions.

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Obviously it does to some extent, seeing as LFry is neither prior enlisted nor a recruited athlete.

LFry94 said:

I think you misunderstood the definition of a diversity applicant. The Air Force Academy looks for people of all locations, races, religious backgrounds, struggles, talents, and life experiences with the intention of building a well-rounded corps of Air Force officers. With these intentions in mind, you must remember that not everyone can afford a top notch high school education to give them that shiny package colleges give out scholarships for. Some students don't have the opportunity to become an eagle scout, or go to boy's state, or play high school sports for four years. However, these people have endured hardships others have never known, and I think these people have a lot to offer our military. The prep school offers these applicants an opportunity to show they have what it takes, and to strengthen themselves academically. Am I biased as a prep school graduate? Of course. But I've also seen the caliber of people the prep school sends to the Academy.

In the end, I have no control over the decision. But if they do choose to keep the prep school around, I hope to visit one day and share my own experiences with them. And I hope you don't hold that against me.

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It appears like you're holding it against kids and families who worked hard and put in the time to have "shiny" resumes or are you making excuses for not being able to compete on a level playing field? some might wonder what category of diversity you feel you contribute to but it's irrelevant to me. Either way, some if not most preppies act as if they know everything and pretend that they're ahead of the game from the time they get off the bus until BCT ends. Once again, just from last year's experience, by the time the academic year has ended, ACPRO, disenrollment and a couple of prior enlisted decided their old assignments and pay were better, didn't want to be around much younger kids-got out. I wonder if that's just with a squadron I'm familiar with or a common occurrence? Because if that's a small sample of why the attrition rate for preppies is much higher, then the resources spent to "prep" people who don't graduate in my book is a waste!

icarus said:

It appears like you're holding it against kids and families who worked hard and put in the time to have "shiny" resumes or are you making excuses for not being able to compete on a level playing field?

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I didn't read LFry94 words to mean this^^.

Icarus, I am wondering if by your comments you mean the prep school is a waste for priors especially, not so much for recruited athletes and "diversity" candidates?

Question: If the decision to close the Prep School were to come down (from On High), how would those kids who get the Falcon Foundation scholarships be affected?

fencersmother said:

Icarus, I am wondering if by your comments you mean the prep school is a waste for priors especially, not so much for recruited athletes and "diversity" candidates?

Question: If the decision to close the Prep School were to come down (from On High), how would those kids who get the Falcon Foundation scholarships be affected?

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What I meant is that I feel the resources-whether it be scholarship or government funding, is a waste if the recipient decides to bail out for whatever reason and not complete the four years after a year of prep which is what the higher rate of attrition suggests.

icarus said:

It appears like you're holding it against kids and families who worked hard and put in the time to have "shiny" resumes or are you making excuses for not being able to compete on a level playing field?

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The point is: The Academy is not looking for an officer corp of shiny resumes. No one is holding it against those families that worked hard. I personally know multiple students who spent two years trying to get into the Academy. I actually enlisted so I would have a better shot at commissioning at some point. These are often the type of people that, while they may not have the "shiny" resume that LFry mentioned, are just as driven and have shown that in different ways, gaining valuable knowledge and experience in the process.

icarus said:

Either way, some if not most preppies act as if they know everything and pretend that they're ahead of the game from the time they get off the bus until BCT ends.

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I hate to break it to you, but they are ahead of the game. They just spent the last year in a relatively structured military environment. They already went through three weeks of basic training, and the Prep class of 2013 had it particularly rough. The Academy is in fact relying on preppies to be sh*t hot basic cadets, assume leadership positions from day one, lead by example, show motivation and explain the training philosophies of the military (I feel like I'm repeating myself here. . .). The Academy training staff even officially briefed us on these expectations. Some might come off as condescending. However , 99% of the time that can be attributed simply to the stresses of the environment and not their actual intentions. I've been in that position twice now. Once as a prior and the prep school and again as a prior preppie at the Academy. I know exactly what those situations are like. Eventually the playing field levels out.

AFrpaso said:

I hate to break it to you, but they are ahead of the game. They just spent the last year in a relatively structured military environment. They already went through three weeks of basic training, and the Prep class of 2013 had it particularly rough. The Academy is in fact relying on preppies to be sh*t hot basic cadets, assume leadership positions from day one, lead by example, show motivation and explain the training philosophies of the military (I feel like I'm repeating myself here. . .). The Academy training staff even officially briefed us on these expectations. Some might come off as condescending. However , 99% of the time that can be attributed simply to the stresses of the environment and not their actual intentions. I've been in that position twice now. Once as a prior and the prep school and again as a prior preppie at the Academy. I know exactly what those situations are like. Eventually the playing field levels out.

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It is only a matter of discussion. Don't flatter yourself. The previous superintendent is one example of many that have gone through the system and shown success. It is the alleged high attrition rate and the examples I cited that I think are reasons why changes have to be made to improve the retention or dissuade the notion that it is something that can be done away with.

icarus said:

It is only a matter of discussion. Don't flatter yourself. The previous superintendent is one example of many that have gone through the system and shown success. It is the alleged high attrition rate and the examples I cited that I think are reasons why changes have to be made to improve the retention or dissuade the notion that it is something that can be done away with.

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It really doesn't matter since neither of us sit on any sort of decision making panel regarding the Prep School.