Why does VMI have such a low "returning students precentage"

Learymom, I'm very sorry to hear about your DS's early departure from the rat line and I wish him the best of luck moving forward.

With that said, I don't think it is correct to indict the VMI system that is openly advertised as the "toughest college in the country". I don't think anyone should be able to claim that they didn't know what they were in for. It is a tried and tested system that, unlike the Federal SA's, hasn't waivered in it's core mission or values. Furthermore, the school openly discusses the self governing class system and the difficulties of not just the rat year but the entire cadetship. There is no false advertising and there are no surprises if you've done your homework.

If everyone made it through then it would not be special. My DS and his BRs survived the rat line because they bonded together and were determined to grow strong through the experience. It was the hardest thing they have ever done, but it can be done. And they never encountered hazing or abuse.

The system works.
 
And they never encountered hazing or abuse.


Then their experience is different from one of my good friends, who graduated and is an officer in the Army.... there was certainly some degree of abuse and hazing... but how much and how bad... some of it could easily be defined as training (and I would contend SAs have some treatment that some might consider abuse or hazing... rightly or wrongly.)
 
I grabbed an old thread to ask the question again...
My DS matriculated on Saturday 17th and is no home Monday the 26th..

By Tuesday he said all but his company had already lost cadets, he's not certain of the numbers, but that's pretty staggering just to think about it...

What I learned a little late is VMI is the only military type university that allows upper class cadets to run all the training.. they are not supervised by faculty or other adult staff members... so much attune to what happens at VMI stays at VMI..

My DS came home traumatized and showing signs of PTSD, and I know what I'm talking about I'm an Active Duty US Army Colonel with 28 years of service and counting.. if my sergeants or lieutenants did what the "cadre" did / do.. they would receive ART-15s and if they worked for me my career would be over.. I'm all for tough training.. but physical and mental hazing has no place... in our service and especially not in our colleges and universities

I'm sorry that your son didn't last- but frankly- it is not true that the Cadre is unsupervised, the Commandant's staff and Company Tac Officers review all the training plans and schedules and are everywhere observing what is going on during training IN AND OUTSIDE OF barracks especially during the first 10 days. Neither is it true that they have an exceptionally high wash out rate though they do indeed have washouts- though I haven't followed it this year, I am certain that it is less than 10% - two years ago which was the last time I looked there were around 30 Rats who left during the 10 days of Hellweek out of 500 who matriculated. I don't think that is particularly high for what is supposed to be hard. Frankly it is nowhere near as demanding as the first week of Marine Basic or City week of Ranger School, and I don't see too many Art 15s coming out of those places so IMHO your comment about Lts and Sgts getting Art 15s if they pushed things like this doesn't hold water. In fact a graduate from USMA from classes in the 70's or earlier would find the experience to be pretty similar to what they remember. VMI does virtually exactly what they advertise- it is tough and physically demanding without being either crazy or pointless. The Commandant and Tacs rigorously emphasize safety with the Cadre Corporals and while the new Rats may think they are pushed to the limit- in reality they are not.
As an O6 - which part of your experience led you to honestly expect that a program such as the Ratline could be physically demanding and not have some dropouts? I am a retired O5 and husband of a now retired O6 as well as being an alum and father of a former cadet, so I too have a couple of times around the block and from my experience observing the kids over the years that have left early- in virtually all cases- the reason they left was because mentally they were conflicted about being there to begin with and very quickly they decided that they don't want to go to a college like that. I am unclear as to what they expected when they got there- but if it doesn't include little sleep, a lot of pushups, a lot of running, a lot of road marching,a lot of time pressure to be someplace else in a diffferent uniform in a very short amount of time accompanied by high decibels, then they clearly picked the wrong place. If you have specific issue that you think is wrong- then you can of course contact the VMI IG or the Superintendent's office, but the root cause in most Rat's leaving this early can usually be boiled down to the individual just doesn't really want to do this- and leaving after 10 days that is my guess in this case.

VMI has been successfully following this pattern for 174 years and makes no bones about what it is and how it does it, and the results are pretty impressive in my book. Rather than disparaging the school because your son decided early on that it's not for him- I think that you ought to spend a little time helping him focus on what it is that he really wants to do and where.
 
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I pulled up this thread in part of my research..

I have informed the VMI IG about my concerns. Based on the way things unfolded, the deputy commandant that was on duty Sunday had not even received any information regarding the supposed incident that occurred that sent my DS to the infirmary.

We received a phone call at 2300 Saturday evening and were told we had to come pick my DS up immediately, that he could not stay in the infirmary until morning, I drove from South of Richmond and arrived at 0245 and immediately took him off campus.

That in it self was evidence that the things were not being supervised closely enough by the TACs or faculty.

We are working on what happened and deciding what the next steps are for my son.. but I am also well aware how " the systems works" and how organizations close ranks when there might be unflattering information / events that occur that they might not want the public at large to know about...

I have not gone into specifics here because I have informed the IG, but I wanted to put out enough information so that others might know and ask the right questions to their DS or DD when they have the chance to talk to them... and also allow others to PM me that might have some insight so that might potentially prevent another parent from having to go through what we've been through over the last 36 hours...
 
A few thoughts...

Not really sure what this new poster means about the SAs "straying from core mission and values." That's a claim so worthless as to not warrant further analysis.

As to the rest, without any indication of what supposedly happen, no one can offer any insight.
 
Learymom, I'm very sorry to hear about your DS's early departure from the rat line and I wish him the best of luck moving forward.

With that said, I don't think it is correct to indict the VMI system that is openly advertised as the "toughest college in the country". I don't think anyone should be able to claim that they didn't know what they were in for. It is a tried and tested system that, unlike the Federal SA's, hasn't waivered in it's core mission or values. Furthermore, the school openly discusses the self governing class system and the difficulties of not just the rat year but the entire cadetship. There is no false advertising and there are no surprises if you've done your homework.

If everyone made it through then it would not be special. My DS and his BRs survived the rat line because they bonded together and were determined to grow strong through the experience. It was the hardest thing they have ever done, but it can be done. And they never encountered hazing or abuse.

The system works.

Really?....well I guess the case is closed then. I wasn't aware that the SA's have waivered from their core mission.

Even my son's fraternity "Openly discusses self governing" so I guess all parents and new students know exactly what to expect. That's naive at best.

Sorry, I should have followed Scout's advice, "That's a claim so worthless as to not warrant further analysis."
 
I am sorry that the posters son had such a precipitous end to his Ratline, but I can't say that I have much sympathy for the manner in which they have chosen to express their issues- publicly with as little corroborating and background detail as possible. They could have and should have gone to the IG and then if dissatisfied publicized their differences with them complete with detail so that others could truly be "forewarned" of something they should be concerned about. Undoubtedly the peanut gallery will now blaze into battle to "be heard" -none of whom have a clue about the situation, the poster, or the son. Nobody has the facts to either defend the Institute nor the reason to condemn it based on this post.
A couple of points:
a. The post Infirmary is staffed by an MD and a Nurse practicioner. They can and do transport cadets the 2 miles into Lexington's Stonewall Jackson hospital for more serious cases that they can't handle. I have no idea why the Cadet couldn't stay in the infirmary overnight, but I would certainly assume that it is because there was no medical necessity for doing so. And if there is no medical necessity for staying the hospital then they have no interest in letting cadets get a good nights sleep & relaxing when the entire rest of the class are going thru their indoctrination. Again- just a surmisal but absent details - that is what occurs there.

b. The difference between slander and fact is details. If you are going to put the information out on the web- then do so completely, because what was posted here was some fragment without anything that would allow anyone else to determine if something really happened to be concerned about. Without specifics- nobody aboard this forum knows whether the poster is right to be concerned, or are seriously over protective, or whether the son just didn't want to be there and this was what he came up with to justify leaving to himself and his parents. Further without specifics, no third party can possibly explain or defend the place, nor do they have any basis for expressing legitimate concern: in short by posting this the way -you get to anonymously splash across the internet a personal gripe as though it is gospel with no chance for defense or dissent. So in my opinion either post specifics or don't post until you actually are willing and able to reveal the details of what you are concerned about.

And absent that detail, IMHO all you do is slander what I believe to be a fine and professionally run institution that has been following this model for almost 175 years. Over the 38 years I have been around VMI, I have seen a number of kids bail this early- (about 6% have left since start of Ratline this year is my understanding- something like 32 of 502 is the unofficial count that I had relayed to me), most leave because they weren't prepared for this challenge either physically or more common- mentally. That's not an especially high attrition rate, (and personally I question how much lower it could go and still be considered an adversative system). If something did happen - then the IG has the responsbility for investigating the incident and getting to the bottom of it - and then if you still disagree with their findings- post them with their responses to your concerns. At least that way people will have something to consider rather than anonymous undetailed complaints.
 
Perhaps I am missing something, but Learymom has simply posted old threads that are critical of VMI. The original threads are undated and Learymom does not use quotation marks clearly indicate where the current and former posts part company.
So after rereading the whole thread, I'm not sure Learymom even has a DS or DD at VMI. Nor am I clear on how old the threads that are reposted are; and we are not privy to (assuming the old postings are creditable... no reason to think they are not) what corrective action may have been taken at VMI.
learymom, the OP simply asked about the background to an approx attrition rate. A fair question. Having visited almost all of the SAs with my DS, and having asked that question at each, I recall that a 25% attrition rate at the end of the soph year is low/average.
 
I pulled up this thread in part of my research..

I have informed the VMI IG about my concerns. Based on the way things unfolded, the deputy commandant that was on duty Sunday had not even received any information regarding the supposed incident that occurred that sent my DS to the infirmary.

We received a phone call at 2300 Saturday evening and were told we had to come pick my DS up immediately, that he could not stay in the infirmary until morning, I drove from South of Richmond and arrived at 0245 and immediately took him off campus.

That in it self was evidence that the things were not being supervised closely enough by the TACs or faculty.

We are working on what happened and deciding what the next steps are for my son.. but I am also well aware how " the systems works" and how organizations close ranks when there might be unflattering information / events that occur that they might not want the public at large to know about...

I have not gone into specifics here because I have informed the IG, but I wanted to put out enough information so that others might know and ask the right questions to their DS or DD when they have the chance to talk to them... and also allow others to PM me that might have some insight so that might potentially prevent another parent from having to go through what we've been through over the last 36 hours...

Not enough facts to make a judgment. If you don't mind please share with us what the end result is. I see it as if we believe in something strong enough, we have to make a stand.

I respectfully disagree that you have "put out enough information," rather just enough information for us to speculate.

I could think some scenarios why your DS had to be picked up but that will be just speculation on my part.
 
... What I learned a little late is VMI is the only military type university that allows upper class cadets to run all the training.. they are not supervised by faculty or other adult staff members... so much attune to what happens at VMI stays at VMI..

Please understand that I am not an alum of any SMC and didn't serve in the military, so whatever I write has to be understood in that light. I do remember, however, picking gravel out of my nose and staunching the flow of blood in police academy when I was the "suspect" while my instructor was showing us how to do a felony stop - I "ad-libbed" a bit and while I was cuffed up and lying on the ground somehow a bit more pressure was applied to the back of my head and, well, two objects (asphalt and my nose) can't occupy the same space. In other words, I fought the law and the asphalt, and the "law" and the asphalt won.

I do know that at Texas A&M the students run virtually all of the Corps of Cadets "FOW" (Freshman Orientation Week). Incoming cadets have already "punched" (withdrawn) from the Corps there. I suspect that if others with experience from the other SMCs or indeed even ROTC units they'd find the same thing, that people have already left. Heck, one relative of mine made it two days in law school - though now he teaches in public middle schools and high schools in Dallas - far more stressful than any court I've ever been in (I've tried about 70 cases to verdict in two different districts and argued cases in the 5th and 10th Circuit Courts of Appeal). Law school wasn't for that brother in law, and I know from my experience as a long term substitute teacher in Boston public schools while I was in college - teaching middle school isn't for me. In my earlier life I was an EMT and worked on ambulances and in emergency rooms - miss it (though I wasn't math smart enough to be a doctor). My wife is a neonatal intensive care nurse. She didn't like her rotation in the ER, and I'm here to tell you, I couldn't put up with the parents and crying babies for 12 hour shift after 12 hour shift. I was comfortable with "treat 'em and street 'em" and she is more comfortable with long term care of very very very small people (some as smaller than a pound) and the parents that come with 'em. My point is this - it'll work out and your son will find his way. Those programs "speak" to some people, like my daughter, who had two earlier roomates "punch out" and another fail out of A&M's Corps, and don't "speak" to others.

I wish your son and your family the best as ya'll go forward.
 
I received a call from my DS Sunday from a church he went to that works with VMI. During the conversation, he did say that his company lost just under 20% due to attrition but his information was that some companies had lower drop rates. He stated the reasons ranged from not expecting what was coming because they didn't do an overnight, not able to handle the physical aspect, taking being yelled at personally and the unfortunate assumption that if they could just barley handle what was going on now; they would fail when regular class work was added. Everyone that dropped was counseled by other "freshman", senior members of the Corps of Cadets as well as the actual VMI staff to try and ensure things were fully understood by both sides. During matriculation day, Sergeant Major John Neel approached my family and introduced himself as the Sergeant Major to the Corps of Cadets. He stated that he was the RAT "Daddy" and that any problems we had or our DS had could be addressed directly through him if desired. The Champlain's office at VMI was also advertised as an outlet for questions and concerns outside the Cadet leadership in case a cadet was afraid of reprisals. I'm posting this information to indicate the various processes my DS was made aware of during this time frame that were available to him to address problems and concerns with training.
 
Similar experience to zyrxkuma. DS Rat called briefly on Sunday. But he also called us very briefly last Wednesday, from his academic advisor's office and with his permission. Sounded hoarse, tired and stressed. Informed us of a "suspected" (minor) concussion and a badly sprained ankle (taped and medicated), both plausibly sustained in the initial chaos of matriculation evening and the following morning. His Dyke (a really superb kid) checked up on him following the injuries, then stepped back and left him to make his own way during Hell Week. DS told us (Wednesday) that eight from his Company ("the hardest one") had dropped already, including one room mate ("I tried to talk him out of it"). DS is a little guy, and the "baby" of the family. He never overnighted at VMI, but did attend STP. DS says some of the cadre are "jerks," but I would be surprised if he felt otherwise. He says he can't wait to see us at Newmarket. My (retired 0-5's) impression: All was as-advertised. Having survived this moderate initiation has given DS a sense of accomplishment and the confidence to tackle what comes next.
 
A lot of what I'm reading happens at many SMCs and the SAs. Yes they are stressed and pushed. But sometimes people also are hurt during physical activity.

When I was a swab my knees felt like they were going to break. As a cadre two years later, I really figured out how much we wanted our swabs to succeed, and included in that success was not breaking them (you can't IT (incentive train...very uncomfortable) swabs who are NOFOs (no formation)).

But things happen. A group of swabs were at PEP (really bad day of being yelled at and ITed often) and they were doing something, had to pack their sea bags with their things. One swab put his/her lock box in the bottom of his/her sea back and flipped it over his/her head to put it on, while at the same time slamming the cadet behind him/her in the head and knocking the cadet out. Sure there are things they could have done to avoid that, but there are always things that could be done.

I was on an amphib off of Greece with a group of civilians on a public outreach program through the Department of Defense. As the civilians were hopping out of the MH-46s, one slipped on an oily patch and fell on the flight deck. The Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense (DASD) who was along for the ride took the time to lecture the five military officers (including me) on safety. All we could do was stand there and think "we've all led people and know about keeping them safe, but sometimes something is just going to happen, like someone slipping as they leave a helicopter."
 
Learymom,

Please proceed as you feel fit with confidence if you believe that your DS was subjected to inappropriate training or conduct. Despite protestations to the contrary, inappropriate and abusive "training" methods can and do occur at service academies and military colleges. The blanket endorsements of methods and experiences I've seen here are meaningless as methods and experiences not only vary from school to school, but also from company to company and within a company. When students are placed in charge of indocrination training, the environment is not uniform. One group of detailers or cadre may be extremely effective, while another could be totally incompetent. They're all new to their roles. Even within companies, favored plebes/rats/swabs will receive mild admonitions for infractions, while those that are out of favor (often for personal reasons not related to performance) will be severely and repeatedly punished for the same offence. And yes, Learymom, while there may technically be an "adult" or two at the top of the hierarchy chart, they can't be at all places at all times. I wish you good luck.
 
Basically, just as I titled this thread. Only 76 percent of all cadets return for the next year. Is there something I should know about?

I believe your title should read why is the retention rate for VMI higher than the national average

"Nationwide, according to an annual freshmen retention study by ACT Inc., 73.3% of students at four-year public schools return for their sophomore year and 72.8% of students at four-year private colleges do the same."
 
Learymom, It surprises me you find VMI's freshman attrition rate "staggering". Its completely in line with the national average for colleges across the country as another poster has pointed out. And those other colleges do not have a "Spartan" military environment but still lose freshman. Why's that? Many reasons.

It sounds like you, nor your DS did enough research about VMI before your DS chose to attend. Did your DS do an overnight at VMI? Did you visit the college or talk to anyone in admissions or cadets prior to your son selecting VMI? I can understand the difficulty you and your DS are going through right now, but your posts seem filled with emotion and accustion that bear no proof. Some of your accusations are plain false!

"I learned a little late is VMI is the only military type university that allows upper class cadets to run all the training.. they are not supervised by faculty or other adult staff members... so much attune to what happens at VMI stays at VMI.."

I would find it "staggering" to believe you and your DS did not know the Corp of cadets was fully run by upperclass cadets with oversight of the staff. It's plainly spelled out on their website and in their literature.

And your accusation that VMI students and staff are not honest about what goes on at VMI, and may try to cover- up things is over the top - "but I am also well aware how " the systems works" and how organizations close ranks when there might be unflattering information / events that occur that they might not want the public at large to know about... "

You've only just filed your complaint with the IG and have not even given the institution a chance to investigate and reply to your DS's situation before accusing them of a cover-up. I get the impression that no matter what actions VMI takes concerning your DS situation you will not be satisfied because it is "your" DS who you believe has been wronged.

My DS also matriculated on the 17th although he has been at VMI since the 4th as a football player. I've spoken to my DS a few times. He's a mentally and physically tough SOB in my opinion, (at least that how I raised him I hope) but he even says its hard. He's talked about some of the cadre in his company whom he feels try to pick-on, mess with, harass, haze, (or any other word you'd like to use), on him in a more "personal" level. He thinks its because he's a football player or because they just flat out dont like him! He was made to do over 100 push ups in incrimemts of 23 over and over as soon as he would recover from one set. When he reached 93 and his arms failed, one cadre told him he could drop his knees to the ground to finish. As soon as he did, several other cadre "swarmed" him to ridicule him about how weak he was for being such a "big strong football player". It pissed him off to say the least. But thats just what the cadre where trying to do. Get into his head and stress him out. That's just one example. I told him to suck it up.

Before he left for VMI I told him that if he quit, he could not come back home. He could enlist in the military or move back to Texas and find a job and apartment on his own. My obligation to support him as a child in my home had ended. That's because I don't want him to even think he has the option to quit. Tough love is what I call it.

As a Col. In the U.S. Army, I appreciate your service to our country. I too am prior military and law enforcement officer for over 22 years. I understand when things can seem much more devastating when it involves people we love and care about. But maybe, just maybe, your DS did not want to be there any longer and chose to quit. I can tell you that the U.S.Army does have training that is similar to an experience like the ratline, such as SF training. They intentionally "haze" candidates to try and break them and get them to quit. It may not happen in the Army medical field for example, but it does go in the the military.

If your DS didn't understand he was going to a "Spartan" military college and thought it would be less intense, then I am truly sorry. But I think it is unbecoming of you as a military officer to cast accusations on this fine institution before having or revealing ALL of the facts in a public forum. You mam, should check yourself.
 
Can't really address this mother's concerns because I don't have the whole picture. Really unfair (unprofessional for military personnel, even if it is a personal matter) to make veiled statements like this. I have a 3rd at VMI. Rat year was hard work. The environment at VMI is tough, but constructive. "Hazing" implies reckless endangerment.
 
Can't really address this mother's concerns because I don't have the whole picture. Really unfair (unprofessional for military personnel, even if it is a personal matter) to make veiled statements like this. I have a 3rd at VMI. Rat year was hard work. The environment at VMI is tough, but constructive. "Hazing" implies reckless endangerment.

I disagree with the idea that hazing "implies reckless endangerment." I think of it in line with the true textbook definition: to subject (freshmen, newcomers, etc.) to abusive or humiliating tricks and ridicule or to harass with unnecessary or disagreeable tasks. Do you think the typical indoctrination includes acts that would fit this definition?
 
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Before he left for VMI I told him that if he quit, he could not come back home. He could enlist in the military or move back to Texas and find a job and apartment on his own. My obligation to support him as a child in my home had ended. That's because I don't want him to even think he has the option to quit. Tough love is what I call it.

Was going to respond, just couldn't think of the right words.
 
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