Why the hate?

MMA19kid said:
There's nothing to be ashamed of having attended a school that offers government and management as majors and chains you to being a pencil pusher for 5 years either. Do you think that a brand new ensign who studied environmental science at the USCGA and is JOOD or equivalent on a cutter has the breadth of knowledge, skills, or experience as a Merchant Marine Academy grad?

I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that in many aspects (almost everything from navigation to shiphandling to engine work), USMMA grads could do a better job. So no, there isn't really anything to be ashamed of.
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I think you took that the wrong way. LITS was not trying to be demeaning about USMMA. If anything, those of us at or who graduated from USCGA understand USMMA better then anyone else. Both schools are the forgotten Service Academies with missions in fields that not many people understand or care to research about. I have great respect for those that choose the merchant mariner route and I can't say I've ever had a bad experience with a USMMA grad...USMMA midshipmen yes, graduates no.

"I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that in many aspects (almost everything from navigation to shiphandling to engine work), USMMA grads could do a better job. So no, there isn't really anything to be ashamed of."
Yes, with your vast amount of experience in completing your plebe year at USMMA, you must know everything. These are just come of the many aspects required to work as a Coast Guard officer onboard a ship. You can be the greatest ship driver in the world but at the end of the day, if you can't lead, it really doesn't matter. As a first tour Ensign, you're not expected to be an expert OOD or EOW, your first billet is legitimately listed on your evaluation as a "Training Billet." You're expected to keep your mouth shut, listen and learn. The operational side of our mission effects so much more then one person's ability to stand a watch. We don't simply drive from point A to point B.

All that aside, I think we can keep this discussion civil without turning it into a pissing contest. Everyone chooses their path in life and no one is better then anyone else because of their choice.
 
Yeah, I think you read my post incorrectly. It was also made before USMMA's recent issue with going to sea.

I applied to USMMA, and I didn't apply because I thought it was a place to be ashamed of.... I also got in.

Your reaction speaks to some insecurity.

But as I said before, there's nothing to be ashamed of.
 
LineInTheSand said:
As a first tour Ensign, you're not expected to be an expert OOD or EOW, your first billet is legitimately listed on your evaluation as a "Training Billet." You're expected to keep your mouth shut, listen and learn. The operational side of our mission effects so much more then one person's ability to stand a watch. We don't simply drive from point A to point B.

All that aside, I think we can keep this discussion civil without turning it into a pissing contest. Everyone chooses their path in life and no one is better then anyone else because of their choice.
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I'd contend there is a lot more to what we do than driving from point A to B. The point A to B part though is kind of the core of it, and is the big emphasis of school. You're expected to be able to do the point A to point B stuff on day one. School doesn't cover all the other stuff you need to be an exceptional mate/engineer though.

LineInTheSand said:
Your reaction speaks to some insecurity.
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INSECURE?! I'M NOT INSECURE! YOU'RE STUPID AND TACKY AND I HATE YOU AND I'M NOT INSECURE.
 
trackandfield08 said:
You can be the greatest ship driver in the world but at the end of the day, if you can't lead, it really doesn't matter.
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This isn't a legitimate response to my post at all. I was making a basic benchmark comparison of technical skills. There's absolutely no factual basis for making any claim about leadership abilities. Those two (ex) members of the USCGA class of '16 who made it (very) close to graduation and commissioning in your officer corps had very sound judgment and leadership abilities.
 
MMA19kid said:
This isn't a legitimate response to my post at all. I was making a basic benchmark comparison of technical skills. There's absolutely no factual basis for making any claim about leadership abilities. Those two (ex) members of the USCGA class of '16 who made it (very) close to graduation and commissioning in your officer corps had very sound judgment and leadership abilities.
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Bro. Stop. Just stop.

Like posts this worthless are beyond help. There has been more than on KP'r to get the boot between lisence and graduation for sexual assault. There are jack bags in every class and some make it farther than others.
 
All of the SAs are terrific -- as someone above said, different missions and different ways in preparing their graduates for their futures. Many may not know much about USMMA because it does do things somewhat different than the other SAs. That said, I've never heard anyone speak ill of USMMA -- though it may well happen.

I can only say this about SA attendees or grads who speak poorly of any other SA (other than in good-natured fun) -- the comments reflect on the speaker rather than those spoken about.
 
KPEngineer said:
Likely they just don't understand the mission of KP and only focus on how much/little the regimental system plays in the life of your typical KP M/N vs the other SA Midn/Cadet. That and the other SAs typically suffer from a heightened sense of their own importance. They love their titles but forget that people don't follow titles, they follow courage.

I'll rate the typical new 3rd Mate/Eng very highly against an O1 who can barely find the chow/mess hall without the help of an E7.

KP ... The easiest academy to get into, the hardest to graduate from.
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KPEngineer said it so perfectly and how I've said it to every candidate I've had that said "my backup is USMMA because they're easy to get in..."

I have my second "pseudo daughter" at KP right now; well, right now she's onboard a navy DDG in the Pacific...she just wrote a superb essay on KP and the "why's and why not's." The bottom line is precisely what KP said: "The HARDEST to stay at" and she echos that when we talk: trimester academics (think BS degree in 3 years, not 4; and the 1 year at sea with projects, etc.) and a faculty/staff that is not one to "suffer fools" too long as that just doesn't fit the maritime model. So they'll toss or recycle a cadet/mid very quickly as opposed to the "big brother" academies.

I'm envious of the experiences she has had so far...I'd love to be there with her to experience them! I may be an AF pilot but I'm a Florida boy that learned to sail when he could ride a bike...and I've been to sea; okay, the biggest vessel I've "con'd" is a 51' Ketch but still...

If you choose KP, don't do it because you're "settling" or you'll be very shocked and potentially out of school very quickly. Choose it because it's the correct fit for you!

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
We have a KP grad at our yacht club. DS (USCGA) happened to be there one evening in uniform and the KP grad congratulated him for making "the second best choice" in his selection of a service academy!
 
LineInTheSand said:
MMA19kid got painfully quiet after attacking me...
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I came to the realization that there's no logic in replying to somebody who routinely posts in a condescendingly self-righteous manner.

flieger83 said:
a faculty/staff that is not one to "suffer fools" too long as that just doesn't fit the maritime model. So they'll toss or recycle a cadet/mid very quickly as opposed to the "big brother" academies.
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This might have been true in the past....but it isn't now. KP is not quick to toss/recycle any mid these days. Our trimester system makes it tough to catch up if you start to fail courses though, and in that case a "Set-back" is necessary because it's logistically impossible for you to graduate with your class.
 
MMA19kid said:
I came to the realization that there's no logic in replying to somebody who routinely posts in a condescendingly self-righteous manner.
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What you should do is go back and read the post that set you off and understand that I was defending USMMA (a school to which I applied to attend 14 years ago). I'm not sure how you read it any other way.
 
flieger83 said:
KPEngineer said it so perfectly and how I've said it to every candidate I've had that said "my backup is USMMA because they're easy to get in..."

I have my second "pseudo daughter" at KP right now; well, right now she's onboard a navy DDG in the Pacific...she just wrote a superb essay on KP and the "why's and why not's." The bottom line is precisely what KP said: "The HARDEST to stay at" and she echos that when we talk: trimester academics (think BS degree in 3 years, not 4; and the 1 year at sea with projects, etc.) and a faculty/staff that is not one to "suffer fools" too long as that just doesn't fit the maritime model. So they'll toss or recycle a cadet/mid very quickly as opposed to the "big brother" academies.

I'm envious of the experiences she has had so far...I'd love to be there with her to experience them! I may be an AF pilot but I'm a Florida boy that learned to sail when he could ride a bike...and I've been to sea; okay, the biggest vessel I've "con'd" is a 51' Ketch but still...

If you choose KP, don't do it because you're "settling" or you'll be very shocked and potentially out of school very quickly. Choose it because it's the correct fit for you!

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
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Flieger83 - I would definitely be interested to read the essay if willing to PM me!
 
As some say, "KP is the easiest to get into...and the hardest to stay in." It might be a little easier than the other academies (12% acceptance rate vs 8% for other academies), but it is definitely hard to stay at. My Daughter is there now, asa plebe. 18.5 credit hours first trimester, now into her second with 17.5 credit hours. Of the 10 plebe girls in her company, only 7 are left. She was recruited to play volleyball. Up until she went to KP, she LIVED for volleyball. But once classes started and she was up studying every night, she realized she had no time for volleyball. 7 other plebes were recruited for volleyball. Only 3 ended up joining the team. It's extremely hard. Don't go into it lightly.
 
Story from my son who had a classmate that was a deckie on an MSC ship that was replenishing a carrier. His friend had transferred over to the carrier and was brought to the bridge where he met the ships captain and an admiral. The mid was told by both naval officers that Kings Point produced some of the finest mariners in the world. Now that's an endorsement.
 
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