Senior Military College Rigor

Pargo2022

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Jan 2, 2018
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Howdy Y'all. I have been admitted to Both Texas A&M and Virginia Military Institute (interviewing for scholars) for Mechanical Engineering and have yet to hear back from Virginia Tech and the Air Force Academy. I am pursuing both an AFROTC and NROTC scholarship (have yet to hear from either). My question is how involved/ rigorous are the various SMC's. USAFA is my #1, however if I am not admitted I will go to one of the 3 aforementioned SMC's. I know VMI is considered the most rigorous, however their engineering program isn't nationally ranked and that's a factor to consider. If y'all could weigh in on your cadet experiences/ your impression of the academics it would be very appreciated. Thank you!
 
Howdy Y'all. I have been admitted to Both Texas A&M and Virginia Military Institute (interviewing for scholars) for Mechanical Engineering and have yet to hear back from Virginia Tech and the Air Force Academy. I am pursuing both an AFROTC and NROTC scholarship (have yet to hear from either). My question is how involved/ rigorous are the various SMC's. USAFA is my #1, however if I am not admitted I will go to one of the 3 aforementioned SMC's. I know VMI is considered the most rigorous, however their engineering program isn't nationally ranked and that's a factor to consider. If y'all could weigh in on your cadet experiences/ your impression of the academics it would be very appreciated. Thank you!

Pargo2011 - The "rankings" put out by magazines and promoted by institutions are not very helpful for deciding if a particular university or college is best for you. For actual academic rigor and - what is most important learning - choose a college or university that has the program that you believe you will do best at. Some students do well in large bustling universities with lots of distractions - others do not. Some students like the activity of a large university - others get lost in the shuffle. For what it is worth - moving from high school to college and intending to study a hard major like engineering or other STEM subject, is a major life change for most students. A small college with faculty dedicated to teaching undergraduates versus large universities where professors are pressed to do research, and freshmen and sophomores are mostly taught by teaching assistants working on their doctorate - and with little invested in students - may be a better way to learn. Attending courses with 100 - 200 students in introductory classes taught by a teaching assistants is not for everyone.
 
The main first decision you need to make is if you want the 100% 24/7 military experience. I know VT advertises a “24/7 military” program as an advantage compared to civilian schools, but it’s not truly 24/7. Not better or worse necessarily, but different. If you like the idea of being a normal student on the weekends (especially later in your cadetship) that’s not an option at VMI. There’s a whole huge university to get involved in at VT/TAMU once you gain more privileges. That’s something many of us here at VMI are envious of (most do not regret though). On the other hand, for me, I decided that if I was gonna do the SMC thing over a normal school, I wanted to go all in. I wanted the most rigorous and harsh experience because I knew I would look back and be proud I chose that path. If that resonates with you, look hard at VMI over the other 3 schools. All of the schools have good engineering programs (not just ME). Our ME program has a very very high washout rate however. It’s rare to see an ME graduate without at least a 3.0 GPA. That departments seems to weed out the rest, just be aware of that.
 
While it not a movie I particularly cared for (I may be alone in the opinion), there is a quote from Forrest Gump that come to mind – “Mama always said life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.” https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/forrest_gump/quotes/

It isn’t clear from your question if you are talking about physical rigor or academic rigor separately, or just the rigor of the sundry institutions. If your circumstances permit I’d urge you to visit the institutions you are interested in. They have similarities and significant differences and no one institution is the best choice for every person. Our son’s best friend is about to graduate from VMI and it was the right choice for him. Small classes, demanding academics, he’s done well as a math major.

The point about small classes and no teaching assistants is well made and something to consider. What are your strengths? One our Scouts also went to VMI and did well early on but as the ratline disappeared and the “aca-line” (or words to the effect) came into play it was harder for him to stay focused. There is more structure at A&M in the first two years of Corps-life there based on what our two kids have me than in the last two – and again, some have a tendency to fall away from the academic pursuits with the addition opportunity for self-directed diversions. That said, many of the A&M folks are in heavy math, science, engineering and related pursuits and do well. A&M and Virginia Tech have tremendous researched-based programs in those disciplines.

I guess I’m trying to say you never know what you are going to get at a particular school, it is all a bit of something-shoot, and it would behoove you if possible to visit the schools to see both the Corps life AND the academic majors that you are interested in. Seriously, those are demanding majors regardless of the school you choose – choose the school you feel comfortable in and the rest should, along with a lot of doses of coffee, take care of itself. There is that old saw – you can do any two of these three things – do well in school, have a life outside of the classroom, and get enough sleep. Good luck and best wishes.
 
While it not a movie I particularly cared for (I may be alone in the opinion), there is a quote from Forrest Gump that come to mind – “Mama always said life was like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get.” https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/forrest_gump/quotes/

It isn’t clear from your question if you are talking about physical rigor or academic rigor separately, or just the rigor of the sundry institutions. If your circumstances permit I’d urge you to visit the institutions you are interested in. They have similarities and significant differences and no one institution is the best choice for every person. Our son’s best friend is about to graduate from VMI and it was the right choice for him. Small classes, demanding academics, he’s done well as a math major.

The point about small classes and no teaching assistants is well made and something to consider. What are your strengths? One our Scouts also went to VMI and did well early on but as the ratline disappeared and the “aca-line” (or words to the effect) came into play it was harder for him to stay focused. There is more structure at A&M in the first two years of Corps-life there based on what our two kids have me than in the last two – and again, some have a tendency to fall away from the academic pursuits with the addition opportunity for self-directed diversions. That said, many of the A&M folks are in heavy math, science, engineering and related pursuits and do well. A&M and Virginia Tech have tremendous researched-based programs in those disciplines.

I guess I’m trying to say you never know what you are going to get at a particular school, it is all a bit of something-shoot, and it would behoove you if possible to visit the schools to see both the Corps life AND the academic majors that you are interested in. Seriously, those are demanding majors regardless of the school you choose – choose the school you feel comfortable in and the rest should, along with a lot of doses of coffee, take care of itself. There is that old saw – you can do any two of these three things – do well in school, have a life outside of the classroom, and get enough sleep. Good luck and best wishes.
A Norwich perspective would be helpful
 
My son is in the engineering school at Norwich.
He visited and met with the department heads at VMI, Citadel, and Norwich.
He also visited UNG but their engineering program is a 5yr thing with Georgia Tech.
All the engineering programs have the potential to provide a good education.
The student is the biggest variable.
In terms of overall "rigor", I would rate them #1 VMI, #2 Citadel, and #3 Norwich.
It seems after Rook year Norwich can be fairly low impact if you choose to work it that way.
But again rigor is relative. .
 
I agree with AJC that rigor is relative to students and not so much to the institution. If well prepared then you should be fine or even stellar at any one of those SMCs.

My DS and I were at Yale visiting their NROTC and AFROTC Programs. And we told AFROTC that DS received a full ride package to Norwich in the ROTC Program. They immediately said that Norwich is a highly respected ROTC Program for the Air Force Engineering Program and very strong in Cyber Security with one of few schools that are certified by NSA as a legit program issuing such degree and certificates.

So little more talking points for Norwich. Also each schools are geographically different with different history and perhaps even different tradition and culture. Norwich 1819 is the oldest among the three and it is in Vermont in the cold weather country, and is a Yankee school. VMI 1839 and Citadel 1842 are in the South with stronger Southern pride and Military History and tradition. I like them all and think they all produce top officers. But for some, location can be the deciding factor, such as being closer to home and weather conditions. You like to ski, go to Vermont. You don’t like 6 months of snow, don’t go to Vermont.
 
I agree with AJC that rigor is relative to students and not so much to the institution. If well prepared then you should be fine or even stellar at any one of those SMCs.

My DS and I were at Yale visiting their NROTC and AFROTC Programs. And we told AFROTC that DS received a full ride package to Norwich in the ROTC Program. They immediately said that Norwich is a highly respected ROTC Program for the Air Force Engineering Program and very strong in Cyber Security with one of few schools that are certified by NSA as a legit program issuing such degree and certificates.

So little more talking points for Norwich. Also each schools are geographically different with different history and perhaps even different tradition and culture. Norwich 1819 is the oldest among the three and it is in Vermont in the cold weather country, and is a Yankee school. VMI 1839 and Citadel 1842 are in the South with stronger Southern pride and Military History and tradition. I like them all and think they all produce top officers. But for some, location can be the deciding factor, such as being closer to home and weather conditions. You like to ski, go to Vermont. You don’t like 6 months of snow, don’t go to Vermont.
This post about Norwich is very helpful to us. Thanks! Cybersecurity aspect in particular.
 
This post about Norwich is very helpful to us. Thanks! Cybersecurity aspect in particular.
The opportunities, internships, scholarships and jobs after college for Norwich Information Assurance grads are amazing. Last year's Super Bowl communications was guarded by Norwich students working with the alphabet agencies. The NSA has been handing out programs similar to a SA- 1 semester of school, 1 semester at Ft Meade (full salary) for your degree program, then 4 years working at the NSA. Fortune 100 internships over the summer... DS has been accepted and thinks his Plan B is just as amazing as Plan A!
 
@Pargo2022. If your question is how tough ME is at VMI, it's pretty brutal. Any of the engineering majors at VMI are tough, and ME is the toughest of all of them.

As someone else said on this thread, it's got a high washout rate (ME = mechanical engineering or ME = maybe economics) with many heading towards the reputed easier liberal arts majors of economics, history, etc...
 
When we toured VMI the head of the Civil Engineering department (quite a character) said the the number of MEs the switch to CE after the first year is roughly equal to the number of CEs that switch to something else is roughly equal, so it all works out in the end.
 
This post about Norwich is very helpful to us. Thanks! Cybersecurity aspect in particular.
The opportunities, internships, scholarships and jobs after college for Norwich Information Assurance grads are amazing. Last year's Super Bowl communications was guarded by Norwich students working with the alphabet agencies. The NSA has been handing out programs similar to a SA- 1 semester of school, 1 semester at Ft Meade (full salary) for your degree program, then 4 years working at the NSA. Fortune 100 internships over the summer... DS has been accepted and thinks his Plan B is just as amazing as Plan A!
Thanks for the reply!
 
When we toured VMI the head of the Civil Engineering department (quite a character) said the the number of MEs the switch to CE after the first year is roughly equal to the number of CEs that switch to something else is roughly equal, so it all works out in the end.

That Retired Navy Capt CE Professor at VMI is a hoot. VMI Grad. The cadets love him both for how he teaches and his personality. He is a big guy, hair challenged, and rides around Post on a moped wearing a pink helmet with a pony tail, or an old grey van covered in bumper stickers. When we visited VMI he gave one of the best “Why become a Civil Engineer?” presentations I have seen.
 
Have to chime-in here...I think Lawman32RPD is being a bit modest. All SMC's are fine institutions but when it comes to engineering, Texas A&M is renowned for its' programs (and ranked nationally at #14). My DS is a Junior in the Corps there, not an engineering major, but has a number of fellow cadets and civilian classmates that swear by the engineering program. It's an extreme challenge just to gain admissions to that program let alone manage both the academics and Corps commitments. Many drop-out but if you can make it work....you'll have little difficulty with employment in the private sector. By the way, the A&M Corps is no walk-in-the-park. You join units based on your branch and interests (heavy academics, heavy PT/discipline, blend of both, etc) and you will be challenged in a manner that may not be too far from that of VMI. Granted...you can choose units that are far less "intense" so there is that option. But if you are seriously considering engineering, have the grades to be accepted to not only A&M, but their engineering program (extremely difficult and even more so if you are from out of state), you'd have a rewarding experience from a top-notch program with many of the rigors you seek (or the lack thereof). Disclaimer - this is not a "negative" comment on any other SMC...they're all great and my DS loved the Citadel and UNG. Just wasn't in the cards.
 
Son is a freshman at A&M. He's in honors engineering and a fish in the Corps. Engineering at A&M is competitive and rigorous. The Corps pays for and provides tutoring for a lot of freshman classes for engineering majors. Fish year and Engineering courseload is a challenging combination. Son managed to get through 1st semester with a 3.7 and earned a star to wear on his uniform.
 
When we toured VMI the head of the Civil Engineering department (quite a character) said the the number of MEs the switch to CE after the first year is roughly equal to the number of CEs that switch to something else is roughly equal, so it all works out in the end.

Prior to entering VMI my son was trying to decide between ME and CE. After getting a dose of Captain Riester he chose CE

It is a hard major but he is really enjoying it.
 
The Citadels School of Engineering is also ranked in the Top 25 among undergraduate programs and has some great internships with Boeing, Duke Power and the Navys Nuclear Power School among others. And Charleston is about the best college town in the US.
 
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