2 Tickets Affecting Appointment?

A1Janitor said:
Calling an attorney to represent you or representing yourself and pleading your case for a plea bargain/dismissal is owning it.

It is not lying. It is not cheating.

Period.
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That is definitely true, unless the process involves misrepresentation of the truth. Someone who is guilty of an offense, knows they are guilty, and still enters a plea of innocence, is most certainly guilty of lying.
 
FutureAdademyDad? said:
A1Janitor said:
Calling an attorney to represent you or representing yourself and pleading your case for a plea bargain/dismissal is owning it.

It is not lying. It is not cheating.

Period.
Click to expand...

That is definitely true, unless the process involves misrepresentation of the truth. Someone who is guilty of an offense, knows they are guilty, and still enters a plea of innocence, is most certainly guilty of lying.
Click to expand...

I would never recommend lying to anyone. Not even the cop stopping you.

Your plea isn’t innocent it’s not guilty. You aren’t guilty until a judge ruled you so.

That being said ... I accept what you are saying. Work it out before hand so that you don’t lie.

For instance, call the DA and say the following “sir, I am not going to disagree with the cop’s postition. However, I would like to plead guilty to a lesser offense to lower the damage to my insurance and because I am entering the Naval Academy and I don’t want to start my career serving our country with this embarassing mark against me. I take full responsibility, and will not argue your decision. I am willing to do community service of your choice before I head to the Naval Academy as additional punishment.”
 
You need to know first how these infractions are viewed in your municipality. Sometimes reckless driving is viewed differently from other moving violations. I also think a lawyer is a good idea here to determine whether the law in YOUR JURISDICTION. Do not take my word or the word of anyone else on here!

My opinion is the curfew violation doesn't need to be reported to anyone, it is most likely administrative. No different than the late fee at the library (please don't bother anyone with a library late fee). If you can pay the fine separately, you could consider doing that.

The reckless driving issue is the one you need to clarify and yes, I agree with those who are recommending speaking with the prosecutor to request the violation be down-graded. Again, there is nothing wrong or dishonest with consulting a lawyer.

Here is an excerpt from the form you will use for your clearance. Pay attention to the first paragraph.

Good luck. You are not the first appointee to face this nor will you be the last.




SF86:
22.1


YES NO (If NO, proceed to 22.2)


- In the past seven (7) years have you been issued a summons, citation, or ticket to appear in court in a criminal proceeding against you? (Do not check if all the citations involved traffic infractions where the fine was less than $300 and did not include alcohol or drugs)
- In the past seven (7) years have you been arrested by any police officer, sheriff, marshal or any other type of law enforcement official? - In the past seven (7) years have you been charged, convicted, or sentenced of a crime in any court? (Include all qualifying charges convictions or sentences in any Federal, state, local, military, or non-U.S. court, even if previously listed on this form).
- In the past seven (7) years have you been or are you currently on probation or parole? - Are you currently on trial or awaiting a trial on criminal charges?

 
A1Janitor said:
I would never recommend lying to anyone. Not even the cop stopping you.

Your plea isn’t innocent it’s not guilty. You aren’t guilty until a judge ruled you so.

That being said ... I accept what you are saying. Work it out before hand so that you don’t lie.

For instance, call the DA and say the following “sir, I am not going to disagree with the cop’s postition. However, I would like to plead guilty to a lesser offense to lower the damage to my insurance and because I am entering the Naval Academy and I don’t want to start my career serving our country with this embarassing mark against me. I take full responsibility, and will not argue your decision. I am willing to do community service of your choice before I head to the Naval Academy as additional punishment.”
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As a Police Officer with 25 years experience, the DA or Prosecutor's office generally do not get involved in traffic citations unless it comes down to a formal court hearing process. For instances such as this it comes down to a traffic magistrate, the cop, and the cited offender. Now there are generally variables involved in the actual traffic stop, and here you only are hearing about one side of the events, sometimes skewed to the "best version" of the events portrayed by the offender. Driving after a curfew is really a no brainer, they all know the rules...... you broke it knowingly. Head out the window, technically can result in a careless driving violation, however it is weak at best. Request an informal hearing and talk to the officer and the magistrate at the hearing, tell them about your situation, and what it could cost you. Often times the cite can be lowered, reduced, or eliminated altogether. If you don't get a favorable outcome in the informal almost all states allow you to take an informal traffic court hearing to a higher level whereas you could get an attorney involved. If you do get an attorney get one who is local and who may have some type of relationship with the Judge or police force, they can often times work some magic by doing a little back room plea bargaining on your behalf.
 
GH148 said:
A1Janitor said:
I would never recommend lying to anyone. Not even the cop stopping you.

Your plea isn’t innocent it’s not guilty. You aren’t guilty until a judge ruled you so.

That being said ... I accept what you are saying. Work it out before hand so that you don’t lie.

For instance, call the DA and say the following “sir, I am not going to disagree with the cop’s postition. However, I would like to plead guilty to a lesser offense to lower the damage to my insurance and because I am entering the Naval Academy and I don’t want to start my career serving our country with this embarassing mark against me. I take full responsibility, and will not argue your decision. I am willing to do community service of your choice before I head to the Naval Academy as additional punishment.”
Click to expand...

As a Police Officer with 25 years experience, the DA or Prosecutor's office generally do not get involved in traffic citations unless it comes down to a formal court hearing process. For instances such as this it comes down to a traffic magistrate, the cop, and the cited offender. Now there are generally variables involved in the actual traffic stop, and here you only are hearing about one side of the events, sometimes skewed to the "best version" of the events portrayed by the offender. Driving after a curfew is really a no brainer, they all know the rules...... you broke it knowingly. Head out the window, technically can result in a careless driving violation, however it is weak at best. Request an informal hearing and talk to the officer and the magistrate at the hearing, tell them about your situation, and what it could cost you. Often times the cite can be lowered, reduced, or eliminated altogether. If you don't get a favorable outcome in the informal almost all states allow you to take an informal traffic court hearing to a higher level whereas you could get an attorney involved. If you do get an attorney get one who is local and who may have some type of relationship with the Judge or police force, they can often times work some magic by doing a little back room plea bargaining on your behalf.
Click to expand...

If you call the courts or the cops in NY - they give you the number to the District Attorney’s office.

In fact - If you call the DAs office ... it goes basically like this:

Hi you have reached John Doe, district attorney of a Smith County. If you are calling about a traffic violation that you would like to reduce to a lower charge, press 1.

I will send you a private message.
 
USNA2023NJ said:
Hi, I was offered an LOA and eventually received an offer of appointment to USNA class of 2023. Unfortunately, last night I received 2 tickets, one for probationary license violation (i was driving past 11 pm) and 1 for careless driving (speeding and my friend stuck his head out of the window without my knowledge in front of a cop). Does anyone know if this will affect my appointment to the academy? And if I go to court to plead not guilty and get one of the tickets overturned will I still have to report both? And who do I report this to, my BGO or my admission counselor?
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Just an Update: So just to clarify, I was not drinking, I was completely sober. If I wanted to contact the prosecutor or the ticketing officer and try to reason with him, do you think it's wise and how would I go about doing that?
 
USNA2023NJ said:
Hi, I was offered an LOA and eventually received an offer of appointment to USNA class of 2023. Unfortunately, last night I received 2 tickets, one for probationary license violation (i was driving past 11 pm) and 1 for careless driving (speeding and my friend stuck his head out of the window without my knowledge in front of a cop). Does anyone know if this will affect my appointment to the academy? And if I go to court to plead not guilty and get one of the tickets overturned will I still have to report both? And who do I report this to, my BGO or my admission counselor?
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I am not an attorney but I am married to a recovering one who has practiced in multiple states over the years. Each jurisdiction is different and each judge is different. In my opinion I don’t think it would hurt consulting an attorney in your area that handles minor traffic violations. They will have a better understanding of the norms in your locality. For example in my area one judge in particular is really hard on minors. I believe he wants to teach them a lesson early. While the judge in the next courtroom would allow you to plead to a lesser violation than careless driving with maybe taking a class and paying a fine. The local attorney may also have a relationship with the prosecutor and be able to work out an agreement. Obviously tell the truth and hopefully things will work out. Also evaluate your relationship with this “friend”. Doesn’t mean anything wrong with that person but be careful with the situations you put yourself in between now and I-day. Good Luck
 
USNA2023NJ said:
Just an Update: So just to clarify, I was not drinking, I was completely sober. If I wanted to contact the prosecutor or the ticketing officer and try to reason with him, do you think it's wise and how would I go about doing that?
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Glad to hear you were not drinking.

I hope you have looked in the mirror and asked yourself why you soberly chose to do the things you did, knowing the risks. Were you unable to say no to peer pressure? Have you done this before and decided you can pick and choose what laws to obey, cafeteria-style? Was any fibbing to your parents or lying by omission involved? How can you choose better in the future? I don’t need those answers, as that is a conversation to have with your aspiring officer self.

You have many points of view to consider. Much depends on how these infractions are handled in your area. A friendly “reasoning with the officer” conversation might work well in one place, but backfire in another.

My advice, which is worth exactly what you are paying for it:

- Tell your BGO by written means you have incurred some driving-related and curfew infractions, alcohol was not in any way involved, you know you are accountable for your behavior, you are in the process of dealing with it, you will keep him or her posted, and are there any other required actions.
- Consult an attorney who specializes in these cases. Perhaps your parents have a friend who is a lawyer who can recommend someone. They usually know what the norms, process, options and precedents are, and what might be worked out to minimize the impact on your record. A judge or magistrate who likes to teach minors a lesson would probably appreciate that you have more on the line, and are entering the service, which will cheerfully boot you out for too many bonehead decisions, as opposed to a civilian path. The judge would probably figure out you are already sweating this heavily.

Let us know how this turns out for you.

“All men make mistakes, but only wise men learn from them.”
- Winston Churchill
 
Overwhelmed said:
It amazing how the judicial system is the "same but different" across our nation. This thread is a perfect example.
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LOL I could show you how it is different for people who donate to the local mayor or are related to the corporation counsel in my city.
 
my 2 cents I would get an attorney and try and get them reduced or completely taken off your record with community service/defensive driving course asap. I had two friends who's children had incidents like yours and they hired an attorney and did the work to get them reduced primarily because of the insurance increase. Both got them totally taken off the record with a fee, and for the younger friend community service and defensive driving. There is no reason to not hire a lawyer for some "ethical" standards. Lawyers used within the framework of the law in my opinion is part of the process.
 
If you opt for an attorney.....make sure he practices before the same Judge or Magistrate often. That way the attorney can at least speak with them and be respected. And one thing to remember....many States, Counties, Local Cities use attorneys...NOT Judges as Magistrates. These Magistrates almost always believe the Police Officer over you, that's what they are paid to do, so if you dispute it in Court, PLEASE have solid evidence you are correct. Otherwise just speak with the prosecutor and maybe the officer and let them know you take responsibility and will learn from it, that you are a good young man and hope to go to into the military.
 
swrakow said:
You obviously have no idea how matters are handled by attorneys, prosecutors, and the courts.
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Good thing attorneys aren't required to have good bedside manner. Attitude like this reflects poorly on other attorneys -- even the ones who aren't snotty.
 
Impulsive said:
If you opt for an attorney.....make sure he practices before the same Judge or Magistrate often. That way the attorney can at least speak with them and be respected.”
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This exactly. My friends in the same situation worked with a lawyer who handles theses types of cases and works regularly with the Judge. They had a relationship and worked out the details. I wouldn’t delay though because the process can take time and might require courses or comm. service depending on your age. It might require nothing more than paying a fine, there’s no telling, but a lawyer versed in the process can tell you. The key is to get it totally off your record if possible.
 
In my area ... the judges also have private practices.

So you hire a judge from an area court to represent you in another court. Quit pro quo. He gets a deal for you. When that judge is in front of him, he gets a deal. Or the prosecutor is more lenient.

It pisses me off.
 
This is all great advice, but one of the questions asked by the OP is if the original charge needs to be reported to USNA if reduced. As I read the instructions for the Police Record Check, it looks it would need to be reported, but it is not perfectly clear. If the original charges are reduced or even dropped, they still physically exist and are public record. Or are they? This is why I feel the OP should be upfront with USNA regardless of what is done within the legal system.
 
Overwhelmed said:
It amazing how the court system is the "same but different" across our nation. This thread is a perfect example.
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You should never assume the courts are the "same but different." I cringe whenever I see people asking for legal advices on internet forums. A lot of well meaning advice on the 'net, but it's all worth what you pay for it. The court system, and criminal laws, can differ rather significantly across state lines (and sometimes even within a state--Chicago is its own little world).
 
Exactly my point.
The Constitution provides all of us with the same rights.
Yet the laws and the criminal justice systems in every state and city vary.
 
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