Seeking Direction on Poor Choice Made

Parent of 4 said:
When DS received his appointment last year RC told him there were 3 things that would cost him that appointment, fail a class, get injured, break the law.
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The day my DS got his appointment, I pretty much told him to double and triple check himself on any decisions he makes that could negatively impact his appointment. This includes participating in any contact sports, taking photos or making social media posting that "could be interpreted" in a bad way.

I don't agree that the fraud charges is "not a big deal" because it was committed by a 17/18yr old. There was obvious intent. There was no mistake about marking down a price so he could purchase it. If it was an adult in a retail store doing the same thing, I'm sure some people would view it differently.

Obviously a bad decision that he hopefully learned from.
 
Parent of 4 said:
I find it almost disturbing how even the wisest and most senior posters here are ignoring the obvious.. I get trying to put a positive spin on this but its pretty difficult. "A cadet will not lie, cheat, or steal..." All of those were done AFTER acceptance. No way that appointment doesn't go to a more deserving candidate who didn't make a premeditated "bad decision".. I'm sorry to say it but let's be honest here.

How would you feel reading this after your Eagle Scout got a TWE??

Or if your child just as qualified was still on the outside looking in??

Again I'm sorry but that is the honest truth as I see it..
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Curious what your military experience is. I am in total agreement the candidates actions were wrong but I go back to what I used through 27 months of company command, I will always have latitude for 18 year olds who make mistakes but have potential. The only difference between the ones who stood in my office and those in formation tended to be those in my office got caught.

I would also say the DS of OP earned his appointment and he earned the right to fight and pursue every legal avenue to keep it. Now once he is sworn in as a cadet then I expect him to embrace the honor code of the military academy and to adhere to UCMJ but I am also willing to offer some grace to those outside the profession who don't embrace the professional ethic.
 
My military experience is extensive, I will leave it at that. I understand what you are saying but we are not talking about enlisted here, we are talking about West Point. We are talking about thousands of highly qualified candidates that get rejected every year for the smallest of reasons.

There is a different measuring stick in play here. All applicants should understand that.

Additionally I completely disagree with your premise that a premeditated act like this is just an 18 year old making a mistake as well as your inference that the honor code means nothing until a cadet is sworn in. Character and honor are key parts of the package for a West Point candidate. They are expected to live by that code ALL the time, not just when big brother is watching.

I wish no ill will towards the DS of the OP in this instance and it certainly sounds as though he was brought up the right way. I just honestly feel that this is not something that will, or should, be swept under the rug. All actions have potential consequences and I believe in this case that consequence will be the forfeiture of this appointment. I certainly could be wrong, but seeing how this system works I doubt it.

I respect the opinion of all who disagree as that is really all any of this is, personal opinions and an exchange of perceptions and experiences..
 
emwvmi01 said:
Curious what your military experience is. I am in total agreement the candidates actions were wrong but I go back to what I used through 27 months of company command, I will always have latitude for 18 year olds who make mistakes but have potential. The only difference between the ones who stood in my office and those in formation tended to be those in my office got caught.
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Absolutely, 18 year old kids make mistakes . That said, it's what they learn and how they respond to the mistakes that is what counts and shows their potential. I was Squadron Legal Officer as a collateral duty, and I can tell you that the kid that owned and accepted responsibility for the problem fared a lot better at NJP than the guy that quibble about it.

I don't know how West Point will react...this is serious offense, whether adjudicated or not, and could result in revocation of the Appointment. However , keep in mind that no one is going to care about the legal niceties of whether there was an arrest, etc when it comes down to Security Clearances/Background investigations. The background investigation can include sending CID Agents to your hometown to interview friends, employers, etc. I'm sure OP tried to keep this as quiet as possible, but any secret shared by more than one person is not a secret.
 
HuskyPilot said:
As a retired Police Officer I felt it might help to clear up terms. OP, your son was "arrested". A citation to appear in court for a misdemeanor charge is an arrest. He was identified to the officers satisfaction and because the misdemeanor did not occur in the officer's presence he was released on a promise to appear. An arrest doesn't always mean physical custody. You sound like a wonderful family (and parent). Your son is very fortunate to have such a parent. Everyone makes mistakes. Im sure he will be fine. It will be one of those experiences that he will grow from. I wish you all the best!
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Thank you so much for the explanation. . .as someone who has gotten 1 speeding ticket when I first started driving at the age of 16, I am a little naive to these types of procedures.

The GREAT News is he was able to keep his appointment! Praise the Lord!!! He is more excited and even more grateful than ever and he truly now realizes how even the slightest lapse in thinking a situation all the way through can be detrimental to your future goals. God is Good - Amen
 
sanman said:
It will obviously depend on how WP view this. I see many responses say it's no big deal; I actually disagree to a certain extent. To go to the efforts of marking a product down so that you can purchase it a lowers price shows planning, thought and intent. Exactly why it is classed as fraud; to me far more serious than petty theft. However, the powers that be may view things differently. I hope things work out for your son.
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I have to say that I agree that this poor decision he made was/is a very big deal. Every time I try to wrap my brain around the thought process I feel down as a parent. There was no 'reason' he shouldn't or couldn't have made his purchase outright. We have the financial means, he had the financial means. . . it makes no sense to me what-so-ever. Unfortunately, it happened. Although the outcome has turned out favorable (Thanks to God's Grace!), that sense of disappointment and embarrassment has not since left. I am grateful it happened at this time in his life. . .as a young man still growing and learning because I am confident he has learned a very valuable lesson through this and I pray he will never make any similar decision again.
 
MidCakePa said:
Own up to it now rather than waiting for USMA to find out via the pre-R Day background check. Have DD call USMA, explain what happened, detail the lessons he learned, ask for mercy. Being proactive, apologetic and repentant go a long way in this type of situation.
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Thank you for your response. He is good to GO! Only by God's grace - Amen!
 
Skipper07 said:
I’ve seen this suggested before but I’m unsure of its applicability in this situation: prepare a written (or be prepared to explain) statement that shows understanding of wrongdoing, remorse, and growth.
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Thank you for your response. He is good to GO! Only by God's grace - Amen!
 
Cookiemom said:
My son reveived a speeding ticket after getting his appointment. A very different thing. He went to court and it was ripped up. dS called WP admissions to tell them. They were very appreciative that he called to tell them. They said it would not affect his offer but werevpleased he was honest about it.
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Thank you for your response. He is good to GO! Only by God's grace - Amen!
 
mom3boys said:
How did this turn out, OP?
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I am thankful and relieved to say, that through the grace of God, he has kept his appointment. We are moving forward from this a stronger family with lessons learned we thought were already clear. It is unfortunate that my son decided to learn the hard way that sin is never hidden and that consequences are real for everyone.
 
THParent said:
not a s@int said:
...He was not arrested...
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That's good.
not a s@int said:
...A citation was given to him with a date to appear in court...
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Okay, that sounds like a misdemeanor.
not a s@int said:
...When he showed up and the judge called his name, the DA said something to the effect of 'program such and such completed, motion (or move) to dismiss'. And that was the end...
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That's really good.
not a s@int said:
...We have since pulled his record and it does show a charge of retail fraud and it shows 'dismissed' as the outcome...
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I am curious as to why it would even show up, if it was "dismissed". Maybe an attorney could help him with that?

I understand your unwillingness to go to an attorney to get this expunged from his record (because it did happen, and why would you want to say that it didn't happen when it did?), but (as I have found before) the attorneys around the Forum would counsel you to do just that. They would say that since this option is available and legal, why would you not do it?

To me, there is a dilemma, there. To an attorney, there is not. This is why if I need legal advice, I don't pay any attention to what my "gut" tells me, and talk with an attorney.
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Thank you for your response. He is good to GO! Only by God's grace - Amen!
 
Jcleppe said:
not a s@int,

This is a bit off topic but I was just curious, if your son has an appointment to WP why did he enlist in the Army Reserve and go to BCT.

I'm surprised given that you said the store management thought highly of your son and realized what his goals were, that they didn't just handle the situation within the store by simply terminating him without getting the Police involved.
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Curiosity is a good thing =) My son has wanted to join the Army since he was 17 years old. Even after he got his appointment, he has been so anxious to 'get his time started' I guess you could say. He has had so much *fun* going through his OST (i think that's what my husband said it is called - one station training, he did basic and ait all together).

Honestly, I was also surprised at the process they went through. They could have just allowed him to pay the difference (as he did immediately anyways) and terminate him. . . I do not know why it unfolded the way it did but through my faith, I know that God allows everything to happen for a reason. We may not understand right away or wish it was different but God's knows. Maybe he wouldn't have learned the lesson's he's learned by it happening in this fashion. Who knows if he even would have told us (his parents). I don't know. But I do know that by going through this trial, we have strengthened our communication which I thought was pretty good before this. We have grieved together in a different way and he has been an example of what NOT to do as an older sibling. We have learned that our children's mistakes are not our own; even though I don't think I will ever stop feeling like "what did I not teach him, or after everything I've ever told you". . ..

We still shop at our local establishment and every time his employers / ex-coworkers see us, they come over and greet us and ask how our son is doing and ask to tell him HI. They know his mistake is not who he is which I am extremely grateful for.
 
Korab said:
not a s@int said:
He was not arrested. A citation was given to him with a date to appear in court. He contacted the DA immediately who in turn had him complete that program online prior to his court date. When he showed up and the judge called his name, the DA said something to the effect of 'program such and such completed, motion (or move) to dismiss'. And that was the end. We have since pulled his record and it does show a charge of retail fraud and it shows 'dismissed' as the outcome. I don't know what else to say. My concern is how this will affect his appointment. . . .and at this point, we still do not know.
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A citation is an arrest - it's semantics - he was charged with with what sounds like a crime. The fact that it was dismissed doesn't mean it wont show up in a criminal background check - the arrest will still show up - maybe the dismissal gets reported and shows up as well. Even if it is expunged, it will likely still show up in a criminal background check. It is almost impossible to get arrest information out of the FBI computers once it is entered.

Your son should be proactive - report it, report what he has learned from it, and hope it doesn't effect his appointment. Actions have consequences, though, and the forethought that went into planning and executing the crime will likely be a concern.

THParent said:
That's good.

I am curious as to why it would even show up, if it was "dismissed". Maybe an attorney could help him with that?

I understand your unwillingness to go to an attorney to get this expunged from his record (because it did happen, and why would you want to say that it didn't happen when it did?), but (as I have found before) the attorneys around the Forum would counsel you to do just that. They would say that since this option is available and legal, why would you not do it?

To me, there is a dilemma, there. To an attorney, there is not. This is why if I need legal advice, I don't pay any attention to what my "gut" tells me, and talk with an attorney.
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When someone is arrested, fingerprints are sent to the FBI, who maintains a nationwide database of arrest records. Dispositions of charges are also sent to the FBI, which is why it is showing as dismissed. Even if a charge is expunged, it will still likely show up in the FBI database - so anyone accessing the FBI database for a background check will see the original charge. Expungement generally only applies at the local level - ie the local courthouse, and maybe the local police who charged the individual.
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Thank you for your response. He is good to GO! Only by God's grace - Amen!
 
Humey said:
It seems from what the mom said that they arent going to clean up the mess. They were able to help make most of the punishment go away, but it seems from what she has said, they dont want to hide the fact that he was arrested. A mistake in my opinion but everyone handles things differently. I have to imagine if that I was in that situation, i would have asked my son what he was thinking and I am sure he would have said "I dont know"
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Thank you for your response. Just like you said, I asked and have continued to ask "why". Because of our faith, I know that the answer is because the devil is a liar and he wants us to be liars too. He comes to steal, kill, and destroy that which God calls for good. But by the Grace of God, our boy is good to GO! Only by God's grace - Amen!
 
ders_dad said:
What I've learned from my on sons' experiences and discussions with our local law enforcement and juvenile prosecutors in the last year or so (Mainly for lurkers): in many cases, a citation or arrest does NOT involve photo ("mug shot") or fingerprinting - particularly for juvenile offenses. Don't take the collection of photo or prints as the litmus test for whether or not there is a record (let's avoid the term "arrest" for now) of the encounter. And that's how I think such things should be viewed - as a law enforcement "encounters". In this day and age, police have to document every kind of interaction with a juvenile - for their protection and the protection of their police force. This becomes part of the permanent record. "Arrest" or "citation" are mainly semantics. Many police forces have become very proactive in addressing the most benign juvenile offenses because experience shows that early, meaningful interdiction in adverse juvenile misbehavior is the best indicator of recidivism prevention. What 20 years ago would go unrecorded by police now gets immediate addressing. It is the world we live in - and it's not all a bad thing.

I have to believe that SAs understand this and see this in the records of the applicants. If they disqualified every applicant with an encounter with the law, they would likely be turning away many terrific future officers. It is when we fall that we get the chance to show our character, not when we succeed.
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Thank you for your response. He is good to GO! Only by God's grace!! I pray that this would be his first and his last encounter with standing on the wrong side of anything having to do with the law. Before this incident, he has always been a 'good' example for anyone to follow. . .we can only hope that after this incident he can now become an even 'better' example for others to follow and NOT do what he has done.
 
Humey said:
ders_dad said:
What I've learned from my on sons' experiences and discussions with our local law enforcement and juvenile prosecutors in the last year or so (Mainly for lurkers): in many cases, a citation or arrest does NOT involve photo ("mug shot") or fingerprinting - particularly for juvenile offenses. Don't take the collection of photo or prints as the litmus test for whether or not there is a record (let's avoid the term "arrest" for now) of the encounter. And that's how I think such things should be viewed - as a law enforcement "encounters". In this day and age, police have to document every kind of interaction with a juvenile - for their protection and the protection of their police force. This becomes part of the permanent record. "Arrest" or "citation" are mainly semantics. Many police forces have become very proactive in addressing the most benign juvenile offenses because experience shows that early, meaningful interdiction in adverse juvenile misbehavior is the best indicator of recidivism prevention. What 20 years ago would go unrecorded by police now gets immediate addressing. It is the world we live in - and it's not all a bad thing.

I have to believe that SAs understand this and see this in the records of the applicants. If they disqualified every applicant with an encounter with the law, they would likely be turning away many terrific future officers. It is when we fall that we get the chance to show our character, not when we succeed.
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My only comment would be that it is one thing if you got arrested prior to applying to an SA, but getting arrested after being accepted to an SA has to big a red flag. I am exaggerating, but if my son or daughter got accepted to an SA, I would wrap them in bubble wrap and not let them out of the house until they report in.
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Thank you for your response. You hit the nail right on the head with an aspect of this situation my husband and I have argued over in private. My husband has commented that it is my fault because I let him get a job. I'm not revealing this to bash my husband, but of course, I have thought this as well. . . .What if I didn't let him get a job. . .none of this would have happened. . . .and even at that, he joined the reserve after his LOA and is currently completing his training. I have struggled with the decision to allow him to do THAT as we have been scared to death if he injures himself or anything negative happening. I don't know what to say but all I know right now at this moment is that God grace is good to us always! We are moving on from this in a better direction. My son was fortunate to keep his appointment thank God!
 
HuskyPilot said:
Wishful said:
I disagree. I think it is the courts job to explain what what is going on to a defendant if he/she doesn't have a lawyer present as the hearing, trial, etc. Also, a visit to the court costs nothing while a visit to a lawyer does. No harm in going to one before paying a lawyer to explain what already happened.
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Not to beat a dead horse but I find it a bit amusing to watch this game of "telephone" play out. The OP knows exactly what has occurred. OP clearly stated that a criminal charge of retail fraud was filed by the District Attorney (DA). OP also said the case was adjudicated with her son completing an offenders training of some sort which satisfied the DA. OP is also aware of the criminal record that exist as a result. The question was not what was the criminal charge but how might it impact her son's appointment. The clarification was simply over the legal definition of arrest in this case. Thats been explained. Im sure everything will work out fine.
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As my heart pounds. . .it HAS. . .worked out fine. Praise be to God! It is only by His grace!!
 
Parent of 4 said:
I find it almost disturbing how even the wisest and most senior posters here are ignoring the obvious.. I get trying to put a positive spin on this but its pretty difficult. "A cadet will not lie, cheat, or steal..." All of those were done AFTER acceptance. No way that appointment doesn't go to a more deserving candidate who didn't make a premeditated "bad decision".. I'm sorry to say it but let's be honest here.

How would you feel reading this after your Eagle Scout got a TWE??

Or if your child just as qualified was still on the outside looking in??

Again I'm sorry but that is the honest truth as I see it..
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I appreciate your honesty wholeheartedly and I agree with all your sentiments. There is no positive spin and I am sorry if I implied one. The only thing I can stand on is living a life driven by faith. Everything happens for a reason. . .good, bad, and sometimes not fair. I feel terrible for the persons in any of those situations you mentioned but I also thank God for second chances and I pray that everyone receives theirs.
 
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