Separated from USNA, need advice/guidance

FormerMid2011

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Hi everyone,

This is something I have never discussed with anyone in person.... but I figure sharing this with strangers within a forum is the easiest first step. Not sure if this is more therapeutic, but I am seeking advice as to what options I have for repayment of my SA debt, as well as any benefits I am entitled to. All in all, I’m trying to get my life in order and am only now finally able to acknowledge this monster that has been following me for years.... fair warning, this is a long read....I wanted to be thorough to give the best understanding of me and the facts of my case.

Thank you all for taking the time to read about the failures of a stranger —- I am grateful for any comments and advice you may have.

—-

In 2010, I was academically separated following my 2/C year, because I was unable to meet the language requirements for graduation on time. My dream was over and I was gifted a debt of $120k.... USNA was my ticket to a college education I couldn’t afford otherwise. Needless to say, I was a 20 year old lost under a mountain of debt and looming depression. After 3 years, I finally pulled myself out the gutter and enlisted in the USN —- which I was then medically separated from, during boot camp... 2 weeks before completion.... for obstructive sleep apnea.

A little backstory —- I grew up in the Navy, my dad and his dad both did 25+ years in the Navy.... it was my dream, still is. While traveling the world was the best part of my childhood, constantly changing schools had its downsides. Specific to this situation: I did not take any languages in High School. In full transparency, I struggled academically throughout my time at the Academy. Yes there was always more time I could’ve spent in EI or studying, but the fact is that the Academy was challenging for me. I struggled with Spanish 2. I know that seems like a joke, but it was very hard for me... especially having 0 knowledge prior, unlike my peers. And for those that know, once you’re behind.... it’s hard to catch up. Midway through the semester, I was failing the class. I was not getting anything out of the hours I spent in EI and study groups, and finals were fast approaching. A final test grade of a B would’ve warned me a passing grade.... in my mind, tough but not impossible. I quit my varsity sport, I hired a Spanish tutor (teacher from local high school) at $1k/mo, and met with her 5 nights/week for 2 months.... after the test, I walked away from that final feeling like i crushed it. I got a B- and earned a 59.94 in the class.... just enough to fail and be unable to graduate on time.

Before any of you ask.... yes I begged my Professor in tears to let me do anything to earn the .06 I needed to save my career from ending...I pleaded for summer school...I begged to be held back an entire year.... Lots of tears, Lots of hugs from teammates and classmates who promised I was still their brother. But no luck. I was still separated. I never heard from 90% of them again.

I thought being separated was hard.... but let me tell you, going home is so much worse. I can’t tell you how many times I had to relive my failure, just to satisfy the curiosity of everyone in my life. How hard it was to look my dad, a Command Master Chief, in the eye. Eventually, it became too painful of a topic to discuss.... which eventually manifested itself in anger and depression, causing me push my family and friends away and to turn to self medicating through drugs and alcohol.

Depression is like drowning. There’s no better way to describe it. The further I sank, the more I felt everything was closing in on me.... crushing me. I surrounded myself with strangers who didn’t know my past, and I avoided my family and friends for a long time.... that was the worst part. Family is everything to me. My dad is my hero. We had a falling out and didn’t speak for over a year.... my lowest point was when thoughts of suicide became constant. Luckily, my sister saved me. She pulled me off the bottom, and talked me off the ledge. I can’t say I beat depression, because I still can’t talk about it openly with real people.... but she held my head above water long enough for me to start dealing with my demons. I reconnected with my family, I cut off all the darkness in my life, and I finally enlisted 3 years later. I was excited. I was hopeful. I made my mind up and decided I would find a way to recommission, no matter how hard it would be.

Re-enlisting was complicated. It was unclear if I had to go through not camp again, or if I was supposed to go strait to the fleet. Nobody was able to greet a clear answer, so the default was boot camp... yay! In fact, when I arrived in Great Lakes, they even pulled me out with the other priors initially. All in all, it wasn’t bad AT ALL. physically and mentally, it was nothing compared to Plebe Summer....I enjoyed it, I event became the RCPO. I know that seems like a joke to some, but it felt good to get back to an old semblance of who I knew I could be. I went to Great Lakes in February... while this was great in the sense that PT was limited due to the ice on the ground, I unfortunately got an URI while there. 2 weeks before graduation, I went to Medical to get a cold pack. Figured this would hold me over, and I just needed the cough syrup to help me sleep. Big mistake. Little did I know, while prescribing me cough medicine, the Physician Assistant was combing through my medical record....

I know what you’re thinking, here it is! You’ve been reading my novel and FINALLY, here’s what he’s been hiding.... for clarification, this is the SAME medical record that followed me from base to base my whole life. It’s also the same medical record I entered the Naval Academy with.... so I thought there was nothing to hide.

What the PA saw was a sleep study I did when I was a child. During sports trips, my parents would hear me sleep when we shared hotel rooms.... they said it sounded like I was choking sometimes.... This cause my parents to have me do a sleep study when I was 11. The test results were inconclusive. I moved on with my life, excelled in school and my sport.... and eventually, I was recruited to play D1 at the school of my dreams..... physically, Nothing held me back. Unfortunately for me, the PA felt that the Navy needed conclusive results 23 years after the fact. I did another sleep study during boot camp, and was diagnosed with obstructive sleep apnea. I never saw the results myself.... next thing I know, I was in separations being kicked out second time.

Once you leave your Division and make your way to Separations, you get a chance to make a phone call. This was one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do. Arguably, this was harder than the Naval Academy. It took a lot for me to get there, and this was a second chance I knew I couldn’t squander. But this hurt more, because this time it ended because of something I was born with. Listening to my dad cry over the phone is something I still try to forget. I fought it the best I could, hell I couldn’t believe I had apnea (I am 6’2”, weighed 205 at the time). I met with JAGs, my dad worked with the MCPON to find a way for me...I delayed my separation by a few weeks, but there was no way around BUMED.

—-

That was almost 7 years ago. I’ve since found a good job, relocated, and met the love of my life. Some days are dark, but she’s my light. We’re engaged, and with marriage on the horizon, I’ve finally sought therapy and am in a place where I can confront these demons I still have to deal with...So here’s where you come in:

What advice do you have about my SA debt? Repayment doesn’t seem like an option. When I was separated from the NA, I elected to repay my debt through Enlistment. I would argue that I upheld my end of the deal, I enlisted. If I was good enough to be an officer, I should’ve been able to enlist. Physically, nothing changed.

What benefits am I eligible for?
At some point, I’d like to buy a house. $1900/mo in rent would do much better if our towards a mortgage. I can’t afford a down payment , but with a VA loan I can afford a home.
I am also finally in the right headspace to finish my degree. My fiancé has assured me this is something we can make work, but if I’m able to utilize the GI Bill or something similar.... then I can use that $ for a wedding or starter home.

My DD214 says:
Time in service = 3 years, 1 month
Active duty = 0

Is SA time considered “active duty service”?
From what I’ve read and looked up, time spent at a SA is considered “active duty”. I’ve reached out to the NA, but have not received a response. Logically, this would make sense to me. It would explain why I was under the impression that I could go from USNA strait to USN, and it would explain why there was so much confusion on whether or not I was supposed to redo boot camp.

Does anyone have experience with getting service records corrected?
Is this something I can and/or should have corrected?
I have already submitted a request for a records correction to BCNR for my DD214

Lastly, if there is any other advice you have for me —- please share. I’m on a path towards redemption and my goal is to get to a place I can be proud of.

Thank you for your time. Thank you for reading everything that has spilled out, in a way, this was therapeutic :)
 
I sure hope someone here has good insight for you. I don’t. BUT I’m a mom and am so PROUD of you!! What an inspiration!! Seriously!! What a gift you will have to help others through empathy and compassion. I don’t know you but your perseverance and tenacity is admirable. You are a blessing in this world!! I hope this works out in your favor, and soon!!
 
Have you thought about a legal advocacy type of an organization. I don't know of any as I would have to search engine them but I would imagine they exist. Also, check with law schools which may be your area. They might have a student run organization like that.
 
It is a good sign you are looking forward with some positivity.

With regard to the debt, in these cases I recommend consulting with a lawyer, usually a former JAG, who specializes in service academy and ROTC disenrollment/separation cases, and other officer/mid/cadet issues. There may be a case to be made to re-negotiate the amount owed and create a payment schedule that would be workable. If you google a string such as “service academy ROTC separation and repayment former JAG lawyer,” you should see some entries pop up. You need to know exactly where you stand with the debt, because Uncle Sam can be relentless in this area. You want to be real clear about your situation in this area, if you want to qualify for a mortgage down the road.

With regard to VA benefits, I am not a veteran service officer (VSO). Your county should have a VSO, and local chapters of American Legion, DAV, etc., also have VSOs. The VA also has community centers which may have a benefits counselor. VSOs are certified by the VA to help you understand what, if any, Federal benefits you qualify for.

You are a veteran in the broadest sense because you served in uniform and have DD-214s. How a veteran is defined for benefits purposes is very specific, by program, and the federal VA has a clear cut definition. My feeling is you will not qualify for federal VA benefits, such as the VA loan - but consult a VSO. But - each state has its own veterans’ agency or department, with its own set of benefits, apart from the federal agency. The state may define veteran differently than the VA, and you may be eligible for some benefits. We had a USNA sponsor mid who DOR’d out of flight school, was willing to serve as a SWO or any other community, but the Navy released him 10 months after graduation, as they didn’t need him. He did not qualify for any Fed VA benefits, but his time as a mid and AD time qualified him for certain benefits from his home state. He was able to get a funded MBA at one of his home state universities. You can find that yourself on line at your state’s website, or the VSO could likely help.

Focus on the things that mean the most in this life, and leave the rest behind: faith, family, friends, health. You will have learned a number of painful lessons on this journey, which will also have taught you to endure and not give up.
 
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Have you considered contacting your congressman, representative, senator, the president, etc? This may be the unpopular opinion but honestly, it sounds to me like you're getting screwed by Uncle Sam. If everything you said is true - and I'm sure it is - then you already fulfilled your contract when you decided to enlist in lieu of repayment and the NAVY, not you, decided you were unfit to serve. Once they/you agreed to that option and you signed on the dotted line, that's it. What they do with you after that is their choice. They don't get to change their minds just because all of a sudden they don't want you. On top of all that, you can prove that you were fit for service based on your Academy attendance. If I were you, I would write to all of my congressmen and representatives and maybe even the White House, explain your entire story just as you have here, and ask to be released from your monetary obligation. It may or may not help, but it certainly won't hurt, and frankly I can't see someone not sympathizing with your case. You've basically done all that you were asked to do.

You can go the lawyer route as @Capt MJ said but I would first exhaust all your other options. The lawyers are in it for themselves and will soak you for all they can get. You could end up winning your case and being released from your debt to the government, only to have to turn around and pay the lawyer a significant amount of $$$.

Lots of hugs from teammates and classmates who promised I was still their brother. But no luck. I was still separated. I never heard from 90% of them again
Sadly this is sometimes how you discover who your true friends are.
 
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The Lawyer (former JAG) path is probably the best path forward as others have suggested above. Most MOCs will say that they will look into it on your behalf ... but as we all know, MOCs are good at “Selling Dope”.
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You can go the lawyer route as @Capt MJ said but I would first exhaust all your other options. The lawyers are in it for themselves and will soak you for all they can get. You could end up winning your case and being released from your debt to the government, only to have to turn around and pay the lawyer a significant amount of $$$.

A pretty cynical view of lawyers. Yes, there are some who are in it for themselves and give the rest a bad name. Lawyers are expensive, but are often worth it. The key is being a smart consumer -- find a lawyer with the experience you need (i.e. CAPT MJ's description of a former JAG or person who who has dealt with the issue) and a good reputation. Always evaluate the recommended course of action with possible or likely return. One of my favorite lines to clients is "there is nothing an attorney likes more than a client with principles , and money!

You can go the political route, ask your Congressman to make an inquiry. My experience is that the Navy does a pretty good job in explaining and justifying their actions in their response. On the other hand, if you pay a lawyer and carefully evaluate the facts and applicable regulations, you will find that 1) Navy was right or wrong, and 2) if wrong, give you a stronger position when you either ask the Navy for recourse, or send the notice to the MOC showing where you were wronged.
 
I sure hope someone here has good insight for you. I don’t. BUT I’m a mom and am so PROUD of you!! What an inspiration!! Seriously!! What a gift you will have to help others through empathy and compassion. I don’t know you but your perseverance and tenacity is admirable. You are a blessing in this world!! I hope this works out in your favor, and soon!!

thank you! I am grateful for your kind words —- I agree, someday I hope I can help someone swim their way back to the surface :)
 
The law firms which routinely work these kinds of cases know “the system,” the law, policies and precedents, have contacts in the right places, and know what’s negotiable for their client’s situation. I think a reputable firm will give a complimentary initial consult and should be able to estimate potential costs. Getting out from under the debt or reducing it might be worth the investment in legal fees.

An inquiry to an elected official will get handled by the military affairs staffer, who will send it over to SECNAV, who will staff it down to OPNAV as a Congressional inquiry. OPNAV will shop it to USNA, CNET and BUMED for comment. CNET will send to NTC for comment. As someone who did the staffing of these back in the day and did my fair share of responding, I will tell you the goal will be facts supporting decisions made along the way. There is no advocacy required for the complainant. If I was the tasked officer at USNA, I would collect the files needed to document reasons for separation and related facts, and that it was consistent with other recommendations for separation in similar academic cases. Medical issues would not have been part of those decisions at that time. The goal with responding to CIs is to provide only the facts relating to actions taken by that specific command, such as USNA. (A lawyer advocating for a client by building a full picture of cause-effect over the years, would ask USNA for documents showing the mid was medically cleared for appointment, even with a history of apnea). NTC’s action officer would only provide facts relating to their role: a medical provider noting something in a medical history provided for this enlistment, ordering a test to determine current existence of the condition, making recommendations and decisions consistent with current policy and precedent, not looking at any USNA issues. BUMED’s action officer would likely note standard procedure was followed. (A good lawyer advocating for his client would stitch all this together to make a case that the client was willing to serve, had been medically cleared before, was ready to serve again in lieu of USNA repayment, and note it was not the client’s fault the Navy itself put an end to the enlistment for medical reasons. If the client had not yet taken his 2/c pre-comm physical at USNA, a lawyer might argue he would have been medically DQ’ed anyway, separated and not incurred a repayment.) At the end of all this CI fact gathering (reviewed by command JAGs, of course, to provide just the facts), it goes back to OPNAV, who gathers it all up in a report back to SECNAV, likely reporting there was no error in process, no bias, no failure at any one stage in the process by the commands taking action at that time. SECNAV forwards its findings in response to the elected official’s staffer. The machine grinds on.

Unless the elected official is a huge military/veteran advocate and believes malicious intent or intentional mishandling was involved, the issue is probably dead, and a polite letter is received.

Anyone who has dealt with large bureaucracies knows what I mean by my “machine” statement. The main reason I recommend a lawyer is that having someone advocate for you who knows how to work within the system might be a good choice. If DFAS gets rolling with repayment default notices, collection notices, any accrued interest, tanking your credit score, it is difficult to find a warm body on the phone at DFAS who has any power over the process. DFAS will have been told you owe money; it is not their job to determine whether it was a just decision, it is to collect what they have been told is a legitimate debt to Uncle Sam.

The key will lie, I think, at SECNAV level, the USNA separation authority. Someone there will have to be convinced, by looking at the entirety of your case, that you proceeded in good faith and willingness to serve, and that your case merits reconsideration. The facts will have to be presented in a way that demonstrates worthiness for consideration as an exception and a break from precedent. It will be the JAGs considering the merits of the case and making recommendations. It takes a JAG to fight a JAG... but these are just my thoughts after reading your post and subsequent discussion.

You are on the road to a better life, and it is the right thing to do to square away this issue so you are free to go on, knowing it is finally resolved.
 
The law firms which routinely work these kinds of cases know “the system,” the law, policies and precedents, have contacts in the right places, and know what’s negotiable for their client’s situation. I think a reputable firm will give a complimentary initial consult and should be able to estimate potential costs. Getting out from under the debt or reducing it might be worth the investment in legal fees.

An inquiry to an elected official will get handled by the military affairs staffer, who will send it over to SECNAV, who will staff it down to OPNAV as a Congressional inquiry. OPNAV will shop it to USNA, CNET and BUMED for comment. CNET will send to NTC for comment. As someone who did the staffing of these back in the day and did my fair share of responding, I will tell you the goal will be facts supporting decisions made along the way. There is no advocacy required for the complainant. If I was the tasked officer at USNA, I would collect the files needed to document reasons for separation and related facts, and that it was consistent with other recommendations for separation in similar academic cases. Medical issues would not have been part of those decisions at that time. The goal with responding to CIs is to provide only the facts relating to actions taken by that specific command, such as USNA. (A lawyer advocating for a client by building a full picture of cause-effect over the years, would ask USNA for documents showing the mid was medically cleared for appointment, even with a history of apnea). NTC’s action officer would only provide facts relating to their role: a medical provider noting something in a medical history provided for this enlistment, ordering a test to determine current existence of the condition, making recommendations and decisions consistent with current policy and precedent, not looking at any USNA issues. BUMED’s action officer would likely note standard procedure was followed. (A good lawyer advocating for his client would stitch all this together to make a case that the client was willing to serve, had been medically cleared before, was ready to serve again in lieu of USNA repayment, and note it was not the client’s fault the Navy itself put an end to the enlistment for medical reasons. If the client had not yet taken his 2/c pre-comm physical at USNA, a lawyer might argue he would have been medically DQ’ed anyway, separated and not incurred a repayment.) At the end of all this CI fact gathering (reviewed by command JAGs, of course, to provide just the facts), it goes back to OPNAV, who gathers it all up in a report back to SECNAV, likely reporting there was no error in process, no bias, no failure at any one stage in the process by the commands taking action at that time. SECNAV forwards its findings in response to the elected official’s staffer. The machine grinds on.

Unless the elected official is a huge military/veteran advocate and believes malicious intent or intentional mishandling was involved, the issue is probably dead, and a polite letter is received.

Anyone who has dealt with large bureaucracies knows what I mean by my “machine” statement. The main reason I recommend a lawyer is that having someone advocate for you who knows how to work within the system might be a good choice. If DFAS gets rolling with repayment default notices, collection notices, any accrued interest, tanking your credit score, it is difficult to find a warm body on the phone at DFAS who has any power over the process. DFAS will have been told you owe money; it is not their job to determine whether it was a just decision, it is to collect what they have been told is a legitimate debt to Uncle Sam.

The key will lie, I think, at SECNAV level, the USNA separation authority. Someone there will have to be convinced, by looking at the entirety of your case, that you proceeded in good faith and willingness to serve, and that your case merits reconsideration. The facts will have to be presented in a way that demonstrates worthiness for consideration as an exception and a break from precedent. It will be the JAGs considering the merits of the case and making recommendations. It takes a JAG to fight a JAG... but these are just my thoughts after reading your post and subsequent discussion.

You are on the road to a better life, and it is the right thing to do to square away this issue so you are free to go on, knowing it is finally resolved.

Thank you for you advice and guidance! I’m going to go both routes and see which end I come out of
 
That’s it - work it from every angle. Knowledge is power, and acting almost always feels better than reacting or being passive.

We are cheering you on. Let us know how it’s going.
 
The law firms which routinely work these kinds of cases know “the system,” the law, policies and precedents, have contacts in the right places, and know what’s negotiable for their client’s situation......It takes a JAG to fight a JAG...
I agree with this completely and suggest you start your search with lawyers in the Norfolk, VA and/or San Diego, CA area for obvious reasons. These are the areas of highest fleet concentration and also areas where many retired and former service folks live. As a result, you are more likely to find an attorney (former JAG or not) who has the required experience and contacts. Contrary to popular opinion, most lawyers take their profession and their duty to clients seriously. Sure there are bad attorneys everywhere as well, but one way to check out an attorney is to inquire with the State's Bar Association and/or licencing authority. This should be relatively easy to find with a Google search.

Good luck to you and stay strong!!
 
Additional reading at the DFAS site, including the mention of collections, interest and credit bureau reporting. Academy debt is listed under the types of educational debt.

Have you talked to these people to determine what their records show about you? Keep a careful log of when you called, who you talked with, info received. I realize it could be a stomach-ache type of call, but then you will know the size of the beast you are dealing with.

 
Additional reading at the DFAS site, including the mention of collections, interest and credit bureau reporting. Academy debt is listed under the types of educational debt.

Have you talked to these people to determine what their records show about you? Keep a careful log of when you called, who you talked with, info received. I realize it could be a stomach-ache type of call, but then you will know the size of the beast you are dealing with.

I have not but that’s great advice, thank you!
 
I have not but that’s great advice, thank you!
Read everything under the links so you understand all the working parts.
I think it’s another prong to your plan. Let’s hope you get a kindly human on the phone. What you really want is the process to request debt relief for your case: academy debt due to academic disenrollment, enlistment and willingness to serve to discharge debt, subsequent involuntary medical separation at boot camp - those are the facts they need, not the entire story. Of course, be appreciative and be fully prepared with dates, have done your full reading on the site, be ready to take notes. Get the extension or email of who you talked to, if they will give it, in case you need to circle back.

Actually, I’d start there. Those folks have heard just about every story. Surely your situation has occurred before. Perhaps there is a path to follow.
 
The law firms which routinely work these kinds of cases know “the system,” the law, policies and precedents, have contacts in the right places, and know what’s negotiable for their client’s situation. I think a reputable firm will give a complimentary initial consult and should be able to estimate potential costs. Getting out from under the debt or reducing it might be worth the investment in legal fees.

> Absolutely agree with the first part of the statement.... finding the right person is critical. It doesn't necessarily to take a JAG to fight a JAG, but a knowledge and understanding of the system, and experience , is critical. Otherwise, you will be paying for someone to learn the basics. However, don't count on a Free Consultation -- IMO, advertising a "free consultation" is a marketing tool for Plaintiff's lawyers looking for work. That said, it is not uncommon at all for a good attorney to sit down with a prospective client, listen to the story, and either advise them that there is little they can do for them, or accept the engagement and outline a course of action, without actually billing the client for the time, but without advertising "free consultation." How (or if ) you are billed for that initial consultation is often a good sign of what the relationship will be like.

I agree with this completely and suggest you start your search with lawyers in the Norfolk, VA and/or San Diego, CA area for obvious reasons. These are the areas of highest fleet concentration and also areas where many retired and former service folks live. As a result, you are more likely to find an attorney (former JAG or not) who has the required experience and contacts..

Actually, in this case I would start in Annapolis. It is likely that there is an attorney in town who handles USNA specific matters, including repayment obligations. The big Navy towns would be more likely to cover the "fleet" issues. Dealing with USNA is probably a very narrow field.
 
Yep, there are definitely a few in Annapolis.
 
Actually, in this case I would start in Annapolis. It is likely that there is an attorney in town who handles USNA specific matters, including repayment obligations. The big Navy towns would be more likely to cover the "fleet" issues. Dealing with USNA is probably a very narrow field.
I cannot disagree with that. However, at least one part of @FormerMid2011, post mentioned BCNR, and that is an arena I think would be a semi-frequent area of practice in the fleet concentration areas. Nevertheless, I think this thread has provided some good advice!
 
@FormerMid2011, I just had to respond. Long story short, I separated voluntarily, under honorable conditions, at the end of my plebe year. I figured out for myself that I didn't want to be an officer in the USN. Many of my company mates disappeared after that, but a handful didn't. Over the years, I reached out to a couple more, and to a person they all said they were relieved and happy to hear from me. As I've gotten older and a little more experienced, I see that sometimes, people say nothing or don't extend a hand because they feel awkward or unsure, or they don't want to bring back painful memories, or they don't know what to say. I am in no position to make any recommendation because I don't know your personal circumstances (and none of us need to). However, if you are still thinking of a friend or two, could it be something you may want to discuss with your therapist? Whether to reach out, and if so, how?

Questions for thought only - no response requested or expected. And I hope it is all right for me, as a USNA orphan too, to offer fair winds and following seas to you. Very best to you, LAP
 
I struggled academically throughout my time at the Academy. Yes there was always more time I could’ve spent in EI or studying, but the fact is that the Academy was challenging for me. I struggled with Spanish 2.

Why are you blaming the Spanish class then? Obviously this is a pattern of mediocre performance rather than a single point of failure. I don't think you're looking at this logically. Try a lawyer or negotiating the payment down, but in my opinion you owe the money. Other than repaying the debt, enlistment in the navy wasn't a second chance like you think it was.
 
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