AROTC

FØB Zero

Enthusiastically American
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Jul 30, 2019
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I’ve read a lot of thread on this, but what are your opinions on Army officers from ROTC vs West Point? I’ve seen controversial things. Ie: ROTC grads are ready to work since they’ve been more chill through college but I’ve also heard USMA grads are better leaders (bc of their experience). Would it be better to graduate top AROTC or bottom USMA?
Any chance ROTC grads get stationed in the most desired posts like Italy or Germany? Or are those all taken by USMA
 
Here’s the consensus among the well-informed veterans of SAF: It matters not what your commissioning path was. Within a few months of graduation, it’s hard to tell the difference between SA and ROTC and OCS grads. And within a few months, the only thing that matters is your performance.

I believe the promotion numbers back this up also. The percentage of senior officers is roughly proportional to the commissioning sources. The SAs may have a sight advantage, but not one that makes insiders declare “ring knockers are the best officers.”

Once you’re on active duty, the enlisted personnel you lead won’t care one bit where you came from. They just want to know that you’re competent, empathetic and trustworthy. Heck, they won’t even know where you came from. Unless you tell them. Which is another matter all together.
 
The commission path can matter, but as with most things in life it’s what you do with the opportunities presented that matters. You can go to a top tier university and take advantage of that opportunity, or you can “... go through life fat, drunk, and stupid.” You can go to West Point and take advantage of the opportunities, or become cynical and spend your time on Yodel complaining about everything and everyone.
West Point does give you more leadership opportunities. I think they probably spend more money on field training your Beast summer than is spent on an ROTC Cadet over four years.
In ROTC you may occasionally get a leadership opportunity, but they are fewer. I will be especially interested to see how it pans out for graduating ROTC seniors this year who did not have advanced camp, their one real leadership opportunity, this past summer. It’s not just that they didn’t get the leadership opportunity, but that means of evaluating and filtering out ROTC Cadets did not exist this year.

At West Point there is more control over the “student body”. That can be a good thing, teaching you discipline and giving you left and right “guide rails”. Or it can be a bad thing sending you out in the world at the age of 21ish with your first taste of “freedom”. Depends on who you are.

West Point gives you the opportunity to attend military schools that are not available to ROTC Cadet, or at least much rarer. Things such as SCUBA school, Chilean Mountain school, Air Assault school... the list goes on of schools and training opportunities, some that I never heard of even on active duty.

On the flip side civilian schools give you education opportunities that may not be available to a West Point Cadet or at least much more competitive. My nephew, a NROTC Cadet, spent time in China becoming fluent in Chinese over a couple summers and after graduation. I don’t know that he would have gotten permission at a SA to do that. I spent a semester abroad studying German at a civilian university in spite of less than stellar grades. I was going through life fat, drunk and stupid at that point and wouldn’t have gotten a spot with my grades at a SA.

This is by no means a complete comparison between the differences. Just some that have struck me seeing both sides.
So which path produces the best officers? It depends on who you are and what you accomplish with the tools you’re given.
 
Performance, performance, performance is the key, from the perspective of any commanding officer evaluating assigned officers. The “SA effect” wears off after about a year, as ROTC and OTS/OCS grads catch up professionally. Certainly the SA grads have a special bond and lifelong network, but the bond among all service members is also there.
 
The commission path can matter, but as with most things in life it’s what you do with the opportunities presented that matters. You can go to a top tier university and take advantage of that opportunity, or you can “... go through life fat, drunk, and stupid.” You can go to West Point and take advantage of the opportunities, or become cynical and spend your time on Yodel complaining about everything and everyone.
West Point does give you more leadership opportunities. I think they probably spend more money on field training your Beast summer than is spent on an ROTC Cadet over four years.
In ROTC you may occasionally get a leadership opportunity, but they are fewer. I will be especially interested to see how it pans out for graduating ROTC seniors this year who did not have advanced camp, their one real leadership opportunity, this past summer. It’s not just that they didn’t get the leadership opportunity, but that means of evaluating and filtering out ROTC Cadets did not exist this year.

At West Point there is more control over the “student body”. That can be a good thing, teaching you discipline and giving you left and right “guide rails”. Or it can be a bad thing sending you out in the world at the age of 21ish with your first taste of “freedom”. Depends on who you are.

West Point gives you the opportunity to attend military schools that are not available to ROTC Cadet, or at least much rarer. Things such as SCUBA school, Chilean Mountain school, Air Assault school... the list goes on of schools and training opportunities, some that I never heard of even on active duty.

On the flip side civilian schools give you education opportunities that may not be available to a West Point Cadet or at least much more competitive. My nephew, a NROTC Cadet, spent time in China becoming fluent in Chinese over a couple summers and after graduation. I don’t know that he would have gotten permission at a SA to do that. I spent a semester abroad studying German at a civilian university in spite of less than stellar grades. I was going through life fat, drunk and stupid at that point and wouldn’t have gotten a spot with my grades at a SA.

This is by no means a complete comparison between the differences. Just some that have struck me seeing both sides.
So which path produces the best officers? It depends on who you are and what you accomplish with the tools you’re given.
Thanks a ton! Yeah I have heard A LOT that USMA is better because of the leadership opportunities... however, one graduate told me that ROTC develops better leader because cadets (those who standout and are selected) have to work harder for those opportunities that are just given at West Point. What is your take on this?
 
Thanks a ton! Yeah I have heard A LOT that USMA is better because of the leadership opportunities... however, one graduate told me that ROTC develops better leader because cadets (those who standout and are selected) have to work harder for those opportunities that are just given at West Point. What is your take on this?

I don’t think that’s necessarily the case. I think both routes can be used to produce good leaders.
Opportunities are “given” at West Point, but you still have to take advantage of those opportunities to grow and learn. Same with the ROTC route.
You really don’t see how someone will perform until they are made to perform. I went the ROTC route and, at each stage of development, from Cadet through O-1 at the basic course, then as a JO in the field, you saw Cadets/officers who rose to the occasion and those who stumbled. Those who learned from their mistakes and grew, and those who blamed others for their short comings.

Two examples from history come to mind of officers with little formal training who rose to the occasion and became outstanding combat leaders. Joshua Chamberlain from the Civil War, arguably one of the finest combat leaders on the Union side and one of the reasons the Union was successful at Gettysburg. His defense of Little Round Top is still studied as an example of leadership. (“We’re out of ammunition, out of ideas, facing another attack... what the heck.. fix bayonets. Charge!”)


The other is Dick Winters of “Band of Brothers” fame. He was a “90 day wonder” OCS grad, but was fortunate enough to survive initial combat and grew into a well respected combat leader who, by the end of the war, was a battalion commander. His hasty attack at Brecourt Manor is still taught as a classic example of a hasty attack.


Again, both of these officers had little formal military training, but rose to the occasion using the tools and education they were given. As a JO it’s doubtful you will be put in such dramatic situations. But the little things you do and learn as a JO can have an impact. As Capt MJ wrote above, after a few years you see those who will grow and those who are treading water... or worse.
 

I think you actually contributed to this thread.
 
My DS, AROTC O-3, is slated for Germany. Everything you've read on this thread and the one linked above applies to him and he never had the guidance of SAF.

You can curate your path to a certain extent with small baby steps, being ever observant of others who are doing what you would like to do.
 
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