Medical Separation: Deciding Between USMA and ROTC Scholarship - One Additional Consideration

So perplexing.

I’m so sorry. I cannot imagine. As a mom.

The only thing that comes to my mind, is wondering if there is an ulterior motive on WP’s side. As in, they were looking for a way to dismiss your cadet for other reasons (real or perceived). NOT SAYING this is the case. As ALL….and don’t mean to offend at all. But could it be that there was something else going on? Where they used the medical as a vehicle to dismiss?

This is for certain a reason to put down on your pros/cons list. Just like there are ones FOR a SA (vs rotc) that aren’t often thought about (ie: a SA is a commission. ROTC route? You still compete to commission…). There are risks with every option. And sometimes, one has to make a best guess, cross there fingers, and jump in.

I’m also a person who believes that we aren’t meant to understand everythjng. That there is a bigger plan for us. We are just along for the ride. Lots of prayer and faith.

None of this eases the pain. Idk if there is a way to fight this? Maybe Mr Mullen can help process some of this understanding. Bc it seems like answers would be helpful.

I’m curious, no need to answer if you don’t want to but how is your cadet/you familiar with the other students at other academia having different outcomes? How are y’all aware of their medical issues? Could it be that their situation is actually different??

Idk. I’m just so sorry. This is painful. Especially now as Firsties are moving through their last semester. Such a head scratcher!!

Thank you Classof83 for this thoughtful post. Regardless of the situation, this is good information to have, especially when weighing decisions about various paths to commissioning. Honestly, not something our DS had considered when deciding between ROTC scholarship or the SA.

To also be separated in that manner must have been an emotional roller coaster for you all. As we have jumped in with both feet for our Class of 2025 DS and are "drinking the kool-aid" as they say, to then have an ending like what you, your DS and your family has experienced.... would be beyond difficult. You're part of the family, then...you're out. That's rough.

Having said that, I'm the first to admit, I know nothing about this topic other than what is publicly available - I realize the mission comes first and there may be reasons for the current policy and/or the actions taken in your case. However, if change is needed to benefit all parties involved, hopefully your research and bringing attention to the matter, will contribute to better and more effective policy.

Good luck to your DS and your family and thank you again for reaching out to help others.

justdoit19 said:

So perplexing.

I’m so sorry. I cannot imagine. As a mom.

The only thing that comes to my mind, is wondering if there is an ulterior motive on WP’s side. As in, they were looking for a way to dismiss your cadet for other reasons (real or perceived). NOT SAYING this is the case. As ALL….and don’t mean to offend at all. But could it be that there was something else going on? Where they used the medical as a vehicle to dismiss?

This is for certain a reason to put down on your pros/cons list. Just like there are ones FOR a SA (vs rotc) that aren’t often thought about (ie: a SA is a commission. ROTC route? You still compete to commission…). There are risks with every option. And sometimes, one has to make a best guess, cross there fingers, and jump in.

I’m also a person who believes that we aren’t meant to understand everythjng. That there is a bigger plan for us. We are just along for the ride. Lots of prayer and faith.

None of this eases the pain. Idk if there is a way to fight this? Maybe Mr Mullen can help process some of this understanding. Bc it seems like answers would be helpful.

I’m curious, no need to answer if you don’t want to but how is your cadet/you familiar with the other students at other academia having different outcomes? How are y’all aware of their medical issues? Could it be that their situation is actually different??

Idk. I’m just so sorry. This is painful. Especially now as Firsties are moving through their last semester. Such a head scratcher!!

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Thanks. Yes, it certainly would be helpful to understand the "no golden handshake" policy. From the outside, it doesn't seem logical. Is it to encourage cadets not to be seek medical attention for medical issues for fear of losing both commissioning and graduation?

Not offended ("ulterior motive"), but that would be really perverse if USMA used a disqualifying medical conditions to eliminate a cadet that wasn't performing. I don't believe that. My cadet was proficient in all three areas (three pillars): military, academic and physical. And when a cadet is not proficient, there isn't much that has stopped USMA from separating them - they don't need to have a medical disqualification if they are failing in one of the pillars. Plenty of examples of that. And that hasn't changed for a couple of hundred years.

I note often on this forum that when something occurs that puts one of the programs in a poor light, someone posts that "there must be something else going on." In this case, there isn't. I'm not saying to take my cadet's case and make a decision about USMA versus other alternatives. A good dose of skepticism is always healthy, but as the saying goes, "do your own research." Check out, for instance, the WP BOV minutes I highlighted in my original post noting LTG (Ret) McMaster's question about separating cadets and preventing them a chance for a waiver for medical conditions (he was just on CBS Morning News this morning discussing the Russia/Ukraine crisis), and other sources such as cadets who have heard the rumor of the "no golden handshakes" policy change (as mentioned in my previous post, the USMA Commandant even mentioned the policy in his address to the August graduates). For instance, I'm not on the "Mom's" facebook page, but from separate sources I am hearing that there have been recent posts there noting an increase in medical separations. There seems to be plenty of evidence that this is a "thing" and when I first heard it, I didn't think it was relevant to us. Then we ran into one of the cadets from a local high school who was separated after three years at West Point for a medical disqualification. The former cadet now runs marathons, etc. Then they came for my cadet.

Really saddens me to hear the OPs situation, and I am certain that many opportunities will be available for a bright successful future for their former Cadet.
My understanding of an SAs mission is to not only train our kids to be warfighters, but also great leaders (in general). So for a graduate that is a 5 and dive, it’s understood that the taxpayer will still get a good return on investment because most of those people will continue to serve in either the public or private sector at an ultra high level. Thus the taxpayers investment in the graduate is still realized without a career in the military.
Not knowing the exact situation in the OPs case or understanding the sources being cited speaking out against “the golden handshake “, I’m baffled. The Cadet completed 3 2/2 years at an SA on the taxpayers dime in good standing (all 3 pillars), has a medically disqualifying condition occur and is not allowed to at least graduate?!?
That is an absolute waste of taxpayers money! I would be having a conversation with my MOC asking how this abuse of funds can be allowed to happen.
I truly wish for the best outcome for the OP.

shock-n-awe said:

Really saddens me to hear the OPs situation, and I am certain that many opportunities will be available for a bright successful future for their former Cadet.
My understanding of an SAs mission is to not only train our kids to be warfighters, but also great leaders (in general). So for a graduate that is a 5 and dive, it’s understood that the taxpayer will still get a good return on investment because most of those people will continue to serve in either the public or private sector at an ultra high level. Thus the taxpayers investment in the graduate is still realized without a career in the military.
Not knowing the exact situation in the OPs case or understanding the sources being cited speaking out against “the golden handshake “, I’m baffled. The Cadet completed 3 2/2 years at an SA on the taxpayers dime in good standing (all 3 pillars), has a medically disqualifying condition occur and is not allowed to at least graduate?!?
That is an absolute waste of taxpayers money! I would be having a conversation with my MOC asking how this abuse of funds can be allowed to happen.
I truly wish for the best outcome for the OP.

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Thank you. Believe me Shock-n-awe, we've had plenty of conversations including with a former member of a presidential cabinet, our congressional delegation, my classmates, current and former general officers, a president of a chapter of West Point society, current members of the WP faculty and chaplain corps, and so on (one member of the West Point community told me that "cadets are disappearing."). As mentioned previously, to a person, no one that I have communicated with agrees with this policy. We've never been provided the courtesy of having the "no golden handshake" policy explained to us. We've been left to engage with the command through our congressional delegation and lawyers. The difficulty has been compounded when in one answer to one of our MOCs' (congressional delegation) Congressional Inquiry, the command used language from AR 40-501 that the removal from the post within a few weeks of the initial diagnosis was because the cadet's presence may lead to "...negatively impacting the stress/wellness of other cadets in their company." I take issue with this language because the only similar language used in AR 401 is in reference to communicable diseases: Chapter 3-1 part e: "May compromise the health or well-being of other Soldiers (for example, a carrier of communicable disease who poses a health threat to others)." My cadet has a medical condition and not a communicable disease! The command initially also maintained that separation was beyond their control and related to the 2019 changes to AR 401-50. To our legal representation, the command later confirmed that the USMA Superintendent still has the full authority to graduate medically disqualified senior cadets (as just happened in May at another service academy to a person with the same diagnosis - in this case, they were also allowed to commission) and as noted, has occurred in recent WP graduations, under the 2021 version of AR 150-1. On the topic of engagement on this question, I am amazed and grateful to the dogged determination of one of our U.S. Senators, one of my cadet's nomination and appointment sources, in pursuing this matter and representing my cadet. I can't say that more would have been done had it been the senator's own cadet. I don't think we would have had that support had they deemed my cadet's denial of graduation justified.

Let me be clear - I am an ardent supporter of West Point. My family's connection to West Point began in the 19th century. But I just wish I would have investigated this policy when I first heard of it. I waited until they came for me and mine. It is clear that the force needs to be strong and healthy and if a medical issue would impact deployment, either a job should be found for that person or they should be disqualified or separated from active duty. But that has nothing to do with allowing a firstie to graduate. As you note, "the taxpayers investment in the graduate is still realized without a career in the military." Allowing a senior to graduate, one that has fulfilled all summer military requirements and is proficient in all three pillars and had a nominal number of credits left to graduation, is a win-win situation, with the force staying strong and the country getting stronger! My cadet's major was one that upon completion, could have led immediately to a job with a three-letter federal agency protecting our national security. Now that degree (at the bachelor's level) can only be completed with two or three universities across the country and that only after approximately an additional two years including application, acceptance and completion of credits.

I don't think there is any near term scenario where my cadet returns to WP. We'll move on. I didn't do anything when I first heard about this issue. Now I am, including these posts and contacting the accreditation authorities on how there is no articulation policy in place at West Point dealing with medically separated seniors - another example of where this policy goes awry and doesn't seem to be well thought-out (again, maybe if they would explain it to us...). I hope these posts inform others. I feel that once the injustice of this "no golden handshakes" policy is fully exposed, future cadets and their families won't have to go through what we have over the last several months.

You have done an immense amount of work and networking with all of the right people. Seems like an exhaustive effort still was not quite enough.
As a father of an Old Grad I am utterly in disbelief that our WP command would drop a Firstie in this way.
Again, not looking at sympathy, or favoritism for any Cadet, but not allowing to graduate in this case seems …..I don’t even have a way to put it into words.
This actually won’t be a complete waste of taxpayers money, because the separated Cadet still gained 3 1/2 years of a WP leadership and academic education which they will still contribute in some other amazing way to serve our country well!
Sadly it’s the hardship that has been handed out by leadership that will make the journey a bit more painful.

The problem with offering advice or comments in this matter is that we have no idea why WP did what they did for this student relative to other students.

My consistent advice to those in my family considering a SA or the military in general——this may not end well for you. So best to understand that going in.

Best of luck to yours

Classof83 said:

That's a remarkable story. Fortunate ending. Sounds like people stepped up.

Yes, it was a condition that was a sudden onset at West Point. Thankfully, now remarkably stable. We are very fortunate.

I'm just surprised at how these cases are currently being handled at WP. I know personally of many cases that were handled differently as recently as under the previous command. In our case, we even had personal testimonials from grads from this time with the same condition who were allowed to graduate and commission. One, who had the same diagnosis, wrote in a letter on our behalf to the USMA Superintendent that as a cadet, "fully participated in all activities, including Sandhurst competition, and never required accommodation." Given the written evaluations from our civilian medical specialists, our MOCs (one senator in particular) have also been astonished by the lack of flexibility by the command. The senator's staff also provided amazing support and we are grateful.

WP 82-86 - I'm sure we know a lot of the same people. I imagine you've seen it all in all those years.

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Glad to hear your DD's condition has stabilized. As a parent, it saddened me to learn about what your family and your child have gone through at WP. I appreciate you have taken the time sharing with us this experience, very informative and helpful. Your child is lucky to have you, a knowledgeable and supportive parent.

In any judgement that an authoritative figure exercises, there is always certain wiggle room or buffer, large or little, that is subjective. I've seen authorities who used that wiggle room to turn a plight into an opportunity inspiring others to thrive on it. I've also seen power differential not being well managed, taking a toll on the growing mind.

This is life. I'm sure with your wisdom and guidance, your child will utilize this as an opportunity to comprehend how the real world runs and come out of it much stronger. Her future will be bright.

My son is faced with choosing between ROTC at a civilian school and the service academy. We definitely will factor this into our consideration. Thanks again.

Small Team Bacsi said:

The problem with offering advice or comments in this matter is that we have no idea why WP did what they did for this student relative to other students.

My consistent advice to those in my family considering a SA or the military in general——this may not end well for you. So best to understand that going in.

Best of luck to yours

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"best to understand that going in" is what my DW's 20+ year friend, an USMA graduate, said when he learned about my son's desire of attending USMA. His own son took the ROTC path.

shock-n-awe said:

You have done an immense amount of work and networking with all of the right people. Seems like an exhaustive effort still was not quite enough.
As a father of an Old Grad I am utterly in disbelief that our WP command would drop a Firstie in this way.
Again, not looking at sympathy, or favoritism for any Cadet, but not allowing to graduate in this case seems …..I don’t even have a way to put it into words.
This actually won’t be a complete waste of taxpayers money, because the separated Cadet still gained 3 1/2 years of a WP leadership and academic education which they will still contribute in some other amazing way to serve our country well!
Sadly it’s the hardship that has been handed out by leadership that will make the journey a bit more painful.

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Thanks, shock-n-awe. I'm hoping the resiliency demonstrated by my cadet over these last years will lead to a good outcome after this initial bitter disappointment.

Small Team Bacsi said:

The problem with offering advice or comments in this matter is that we have no idea why WP did what they did for this student relative to other students.

My consistent advice to those in my family considering a SA or the military in general——this may not end well for you. So best to understand that going in.

Best of luck to yours

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Thanks, Small Team Bacsi. I'd put it differently, given the history of my own family's service in the military goes back to the Civil War and includes probably ever major conflict since including the Spanish American war in which my grandfather was wounded and disabled: considering service to your country--this may end well for you. In my own immediate family, both father and two siblings retired from the military (and the other was married to someone who retired). And you are right, we have no idea why the current WP command did what they did. There would be a simple solution, however, to that - tell us why this "no golden handshakes" policy is being applied to our cadets (I say "our cadets" as I never thought it would apply to my cadet until it did). Until then, maybe "this may not end well for you" at USMA is appropriate.

Just wanted to throw this out here...Hundreds of kids do not graduate with the class who start with the class on R-Day. All of those kids are bright, talented, smart, high achieving...those are 200+ heartbreaks in each class.

DrMom said:

Just wanted to throw this out here...Hundreds of kids do not graduate with the class who start with the class on R-Day. All of those kids are bright, talented, smart, high achieving...those are 200+ heartbreaks in each class.

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DrMom, It is a true observation that each class loses members. That hasn't changed for over 200 years. Certainly angst and heartbreak are involved for these cadets and families. That's not the point of this thread, however, as most of these cadets resign or are separated for being found deficient academically, militarily and/or don't meet physical standards. Some are also found medically unfit during the first three years and are also separated.

What is different about this situation is that Army regulations (AR 150-1) specifically allow for the graduation of medically disqualified senior cadets, and it has been a consistent practice in the past for superintendents to do so. The current "no golden handshake" policy changes this, and I (and apparently several posters agree) this changes the calculation for some who have alternatives such as an ROTC scholarship (perhaps sweetened to the "full-ride" as my cadet's was). The choice should not be made lightly.

jerrysdad said:

"best to understand that going in" is what my DW's 20+ year friend, an USMA graduate, said when he learned about my son's desire of attending USMA. His own son took the ROTC path.

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Exactly, jerrysdad. Have all the facts and make the best choice knowing all the details about what is happening now at USMA.

This thread has bothered me thinking about it.

Why? With no announced policy change for this year why would WP do this. One decision for one student. Another opposite decision for a virtually same student.

This makes no sense,

Why would a major professional organization like WP do something that so clearly looks arbitrary and punitive to students in good standing who have done nothing wrong, and a policy that seems to change from year to year or within the same year.

And a policy that would be very hard to defend to congress if asked. Very hard. And no one wants to answer hard Congressionals when they have nothing to show in defense for their new and not uniform decisions,.

The only thing that jumped out at me———does this condition have anything to do with covid and taking or nor taking a vax? Or anything similar.

If not this makes absolutely makes no sense at all. And a very bad look if students in good standing are being treated differently for what is the virtually exact same situation.

jerrysdad said:

Glad to hear your DD's condition has stabilized. As a parent, it saddened me to learn about what your family and your child have gone through at WP. I appreciate you have taken the time sharing with us this experience, very informative and helpful. Your child is lucky to have you, a knowledgeable and supportive parent.

In any judgement that an authoritative figure exercises, there is always certain wiggle room or buffer, large or little, that is subjective. I've seen authorities who used that wiggle room to turn a plight into an opportunity inspiring others to thrive on it. I've also seen power differential not being well managed, taking a toll on the growing mind.

This is life. I'm sure with your wisdom and guidance, your child will utilize this as an opportunity to comprehend how the real world runs and come out of it much stronger. Her future will be bright.

My son is faced with choosing between ROTC at a civilian school and the service academy. We definitely will factor this into our consideration. Thanks again.

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Jerrysdad, I completely agree - how a leader uses their discretionary power ("wiggle room") makes a world of difference and turning a "plight into an opportunity (beautifully put)" should be seen as a gift. I've told my cadet that they will see this in the civilian world as well - good and bad bosses, some who care about their employees and others who only care about themselves.

Good luck to your son on his decision.

Small Team Bacsi said:

This thread has bothered me thinking about it.

Why? With no announced policy change for this year why would WP do this. One decision for one student. Another opposite decision for a virtually same student.

This makes no sense,

Why would a major professional organization like WP do something that so clearly looks arbitrary and punitive to students in good standing who have done nothing wrong, and a policy that seems to change from year to year or within the same year.

And a policy that would be very hard to defend to congress if asked. Very hard. And no one wants to answer hard Congressionals when they have nothing to show in defense for their new and not uniform decisions,.

The only thing that jumped out at me———does this condition have anything to do with covid and taking or nor taking a vax? Or anything similar.

If not this makes absolutely makes no sense at all. And a very bad look if students in good standing are being treated differently for what is the virtually exact same situation.

Click to expand...

Small Team Basci, you are spot on with "hard Congressional" questions coming. That is what I have written in an appeal up the chain above WP in which I warn: given how upset our MOCs were, what about when this policy is used against the cadets of other MOCs? In a direct letter to the WP leadership, our MOC asked that "every consideration" be given our cadet and that the "discretionary power" available be used to the benefit of our cadet. I just confirmed yesterday that no reply has been given to this MOC's letter.

To address your other points, our cadet followed all WP COVID policy. And on the arbitrary changes, I do know the details, one from first hand knowledge (I've done "my own research") directly from the cadet themselves, of two recent cases in which cadets with medical disqualification were allowed to graduate. In both cases, there was a factor beyond the basic details of a medically disqualified senior requesting to graduate as allowed under Army regulations. Apparently, when it is deemed in their favor, it is not a hard "no golden handshakes" policy but a flexible "no golden handshakes" policy, which to me makes even less sense.

So you are saying that this has nothing to do with a vax or getting covid?

Does not make any sense at all then.

Surely you would think that there must be written policies to follow when it impacts a fourth year student.

@Classof83,

My honest assessment is that appeals to change the outcome of your young adult's case to allow her to reinstate/ finish/ graduate at WP will be a very likely be as effective as pushing a rope - not a lot of return no matter how hard you push. That being said, I commend you for the efforts taken and wish you the best outcome here. I would do the same thing or try to. I just feel they won't admit they made a hasty or less than optimal decision, and will back the leader even if some are scratching their heads at the choice made privately.

Years ago my application was rejected at one of the largest companies in the world. My recruiter gave me the news, and my response was "please politely tell them I reject their rejection and I'd like 5 minutes on the phone with the hiring manager." I honestly felt I could do the job well. and had the right background, experience, tools. Reluctantly he did, which reportedly brought much laughter to the hiring team. Well, a few of those hiring managers were mocking me at the water cooler at corporate HQ - what a baffoon etc. , and a very senior person, a household name actually - heard it, and gave me five minutes, noting I sounded hungry and like I wanted to be there, flew me out for an interview after that, and I got hired. My point being is odds be d*mned you should still try. I'm just trying to balance that and the message of not keeping on with CPRing with all energy in what i see as an already coded patient.

I do hope you recognize that abrupt separation from any band of brothers group you are close with is brutal - be it the military, classmates you bonded with while at WP, a college women's soccer or football team after an injury, even a corporation you've worked at for 20 years then were laid off after a merger or whatever. Any group you are in the soup with on an athletic field, hot zone, operating theater, theater of combat, etc. It's a sudden loss, and you should continue to support your young adult through this transition, but if I can suggest while CPRing at WP, if you aren't already, also put some of your energy now, 20% IDK, into her path forward- her next school, a transition plan on where to work or rehab as needed to return to optimal shape, etc. her applications, letters of reference, a course plan on what she'll need to take to graduate, internship opportunities, a semester abroad to clear her head and the passport/ funds she'll need, options to get into school this spring or summer. I hope sharing this helps you and your young adult on your journey.

Best of luck as you sort through this and please keep the board posted - I wish I knew how to better help but maybe different viewpoints will help in some small ways.

This situation makes me sad. I know that separations happen, life happens and the heartbreak and trauma must be horrendous.

I agree with you and others that the seemingly whimsical decision to not allow the Cadet to graduate makes absolutely no sense to me (from the outside without all the info).

I'm sorry, I applaud you for what appears to be very thorough and thoughtful support of your DS and wish you luck in the appeal. And, good luck to your DS. He has a lot of success and experience already under his belt.