Pilot Qualifications

My son met with his NROTC advisor today. He was told he should improve his GPA if he wants to be a contender for a pilot slot. We understand that completely. He was also told he would need to shave a minute off his run time. He runs within Navy standards. So my question is: Is the run time really this important? Thank you on advance for any insight you might share.

Yes, the run time really matters. Military service is a contact sport. Your son is not only expected to be an exemplary example of a leader whose physical fitness others will be motivated by and want to emulate, not only must pilots be in top physical condition to do their jobs, but there are also lots of others who want those pilot slots who will put in the work. This is very simple and straightforward and will not change from Day 1 of your son's career to his last day of retirement.

You mentioned "within standards". "Within standards" means minimum. That's okay if your career goal is to scrub garbage cans. No one wants a pilot or a leader who does the minimum. Poor physical fitness indicates a lack of effort and a lack of understanding of what is expected of them.

I had to BEAT THIS INTO MY KIDS. They thought minimums were a success story. They now understand reality, and, for example, have incorporated vigorous physical fitness into daily routine, greatly exceeding their peers in order to achieve their goals of being leaders. This task wasn't easy and it took a long time for them to stop howling against me but now it is a way of life for them.

JohnMcLane said:

Yes, the run time really matters. Military service is a contact sport. Your son is not only expected to be an exemplary example of a leader whose physical fitness others will be motivated by and want to emulate, not only must pilots be in top physical condition to do their jobs, but there are also lots of others who want those pilot slots who will put in the work. This is very simple and straightforward and will not change from Day 1 of your son's career to his last day of retirement.

You mentioned "within standards". "Within standards" means minimum. That's okay if your career goal is to scrub garbage cans. No one wants a pilot or a leader who does the minimum. Poor physical fitness indicates a lack of effort and a lack of understanding of what is expected of them.

I had to BEAT THIS INTO MY KIDS. They thought minimums were a success story. They now understand reality, and, for example, have incorporated vigorous physical fitness into daily routine, greatly exceeding their peers in order to achieve their goals of being leaders. This task wasn't easy and it took a long time for them to stop howling against me but now it is a way of life for them.

Click to expand...

Wow...scrub garbage cans? Well thank you for your words anyway. I will share them with him.

FlyingProud said:

My son met with his NROTC advisor today. He was told he should improve his GPA if he wants to be a contender for a pilot slot. We understand that completely. He was also told he would need to shave a minute off his run time. He runs within Navy standards. So my question is: Is the run time really this important? Thank you on advance for any insight you might share.

Click to expand...

Fleet minimum standards are pretty low, and officers particularly are expected to be well above that bar. Fleet commands might also pay special attention to an officer who is just scraping the bare minimum Satisfactory Medium for the PFA. One of my previous commands would place officers on FEP (mando PT) for scores below Satisfactory High.

The advisor may be giving advice to compete realistically with other MIDN they have observed who also want the same assignment.

I hope your son gets fired up. It is competetive by design. There are tons of posts on this forum by kids who weren't as physically fit as they could have been and are now watching their dreams tank. Some of them attack their weakness with a passion and are ultimately successful. Some don't do the work and have commensurate outcomes. Your son's advisor told him what he needs to do. The good news is no one needs talent, skill, or brains to improve a run score, just motivation. The ball is in his court.

It's always tricky to try and judge something based on a snipet from a forum post. Based on the fact that the advisor discussed GPA improvement and physical fitness improvement, it sounds to me like this was a BOS (Beginning of Semester) interview.

Each NROTC team handles these a little differently, but with GWU, I ask the advisors to discuss weak areas that need improvement with the Midshipmen. It isn't meant to be a negative interview but the intent is to tell them where they are coming up short. Just telling someone they're doing great isn't helpful in the long run.

It sounds as though the advisor is telling your son he is "average". Among Midshipmen, that means he is probably doing better than 80% of the kids from his high school. But he isn't competing with them anymore. He is competing with other motivated men and women (note I am not calling them kids anymore) and all of those men and women want competitive service selection. Average doesn't put someone high enough on the list to get their first choice.

I am not an aviator, but I know that in their training at Pensacola, they put them in a big spin machine (I can't remember the name of it but someone on here knows what it's called) The machine applies G forces and it's no joke. You can't have average cardiovascular development and make it through that.

The good news is that he obviously confides in you and wants your input. I recommend that input go something along the lines of telling him if he really wants to fly, then he needs to put in the effort......physically and academically. The military provides all the opportunities to improve yourself. But we don't give choice selections based solely on the idea that someone wants it really bad.

nuensis said:

Fleet minimum standards are pretty low, and officers particularly are expected to be well above that bar. Fleet commands might also pay special attention to an officer who is just scraping the bare minimum Satisfactory Medium for the PFA. One of my previous commands would place officers on FEP (mando PT) for scores below Satisfactory High.

The advisor may be giving advice to compete realistically with other MIDN they have observed who also want the same assignment.

Click to expand...

He has always ran well enough to not be placed on FEP and he meets the maximums for planks and pushups. I did not mean to represent him as a low performer. It's good to understand the "why" behind the run portion which is my reason for posting on this forum. It will be interesting to see how committed and driven he truly is. Thank you.

I'm not going to opine on the standards, there are others on this forum more versed than I. What I can share are experiences that your son might miss out on and I'm hoping they serve as a means of motivation. I have 2 DSs that wanted pilot slots. DS1 is a helo pilot in San Diego. His training journey took him from Pensacola to Corpus to Milton to Jacksonville to San Diego, all in under 5 years. He actually enjoyed the moves and experiencing new places and meeting new people. His deployments took him to Japan, Guam and Hawaii so far. He's a HAC mentoring new pilots to the squadron with increased responsibility and has said he couldn't imagine doing anything else. DS2 is currently in flight school. His journey took him from Pensacola to Corpus and he will be flying P8s. He's also enjoying the journey. In the meantime, they both have friends who have lost jobs, changed jobs, or don't necessarily enjoy what they are doing. If it's what your son really wants, put in the work, it will be worth it.

GWU PNS said:

//in their training at Pensacola, they put them in a big spin machine (I can't remember the name of it but someone on here knows what it's called) The machine applies G forces and it's no joke. You can't have average cardiovascular development and make it through that.

Click to expand...

Not sure but you might be referring to:either an aerotrim (also known as Multi-Axis Trainer or MAT) is a 3-axis gimbal used for equilibrioception (balance) training in pilots and astronauts.

-0r-
High G centrifuge which spins the pilot around - shown in many movies as a pressure test to determine readiness to go to space or whatever- this large room setup puts the pilot under high G force

Neither of these nor pulling 7Gs in an E18 would be a fun experience if not in peak physical condition

Don't forget about the water dunk tank. Then there is S.E.R.E (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape) school that all pilots/aircrew MUST attend. SERE is great for weight loss.

TCartens said:

Don't forget about the water dunk tank.

Then there is S.E.R.E (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape) school that all pilots/aircrew MUST attend. SERE is great for weight loss.

Click to expand...

Did the Helo dunker and Dilbert Dunker as a 2/C mid and it was MOSTLY fun.

Herman_Snerd said:

Not sure but you might be referring to:either an aerotrim (also known as Multi-Axis Trainer or MAT) is a 3-axis gimbal used for equilibrioception (balance) training in pilots and astronauts.
View attachment 13453View attachment 13454
-0r-
High G centrifuge which spins the pilot around - shown in many movies as a pressure test to determine readiness to go to space or whatever- this large room setup puts the pilot under high G force

Neither of these nor pulling 7Gs in an E18 would be a fun experience if not in peak physical condition

Click to expand...

The one I was thinking of is the High G. They teach the students some sort of valsalva maneuver which helps prevent them from passing out. For me.....hmmmm......nope....hard pass!

Now I understand the importance of it....Thank you everyone!

Actually, the best training for handling g loads is weight training and anaerobic training.
I did not fly fighters but I did teach aerobatics. While I did not do a study, it seemed the best ones at dealing with the +- g loads of aerobatics were short females. The ones who had it the toughest were skinny guys, long distance runners.
in my 40s about 30 minutes of aerobatics, constant +- gs was about my limit where I needed a break. I remember taking one female up for her first aerobatic flight who was about 5’3”, good shape, but not a runner. After 30 minutes of doing increasingly complex and high/low g maneuvers I asked if she was ready for a break. Nope. She was doing great.
Military instructors on the line might have different observations.

UHBlackhawk said:

Actually, the best training for handling g loads is weight training and anaerobic training.
I did not fly fighters but I did teach aerobatics. While I did not do a study, it seemed the best ones at dealing with the +- g loads of aerobatics were short females. The ones who had it the toughest were skinny guys, long distance runners.
in my 40s about 30 minutes of aerobatics, constant +- gs was about my limit where I needed a break. I remember taking one female up for her first aerobatic flight who was about 5’3”, good shape, but not a runner. After 30 minutes of doing increasingly complex and high/low g maneuvers I asked if she was ready for a break. Nope. She was doing great.
Military instructors on the line might have different observations.

Defense Technical Information Center

apps.dtic.mil

Click to expand...

Short stout stature = g monsters. Tall skinny endurance athletes with low resting heart rates and BPs = struggle bus. Pulling Gs is a sport for people with high blood pressure and short necks. Those not blessed with such features do best with weight training and HIIT type workouts. A high aspect dogfight is indeed a HIIT workout. Measured vertical distance between your heart and brain is highly correlated to resting G tolerance. That’s one of the major advantages of the seat recline angle in the F16.

A 4-ship BFM sortie...split into pairs, "go to your corners and at the bell come out fighting..." you separate and then come at each other, reach the merge, break, and the fights on!

You run several of these over 30-45 minutes, run yourself out of gas (fuel and human energy), recover to the field, and go into a 2-3 hour debrief. I've lost 5-10 pounds of water weight in a fight like that from fighting the G forces. For folks my size (6'2, 225) it was weight training and repetition that allowed us to fly that way as a norm.

I haven't been in a fighter squadron that didn't have a decent little gym for weight training. And of course, the base gym would be loaded with folks.

Oh, and when speaking of the centrifuge...it was mentioned above...in the AF if you're going to fly fighters...you must pass this pig. And to pass, unless they've changed the standards, you will have to successfully "fly" a 9G turn for 15 seconds. And that is NOT FUN. Put simply: IT HURTS.

If you PASS, you're all smiles...if you don't, you get recorded doing the funky chicken...

Praying i never, ever, recognize the face in one of these videos

We were all told in Pensacola a couple months ago that they (like CNETC and CNATRA) are reducing pilot and NFO slots by quite a bit for both USNA and NROTC for a couple years (class of 2024 and onwards) due to the backlog. They would've started with class of 2023 for this, but that deadline had already passed by the time it was realized there was a big problem with NIFE wait times at NASC. Expect aviation to be more competitive because of that. GPA is very important, PRT scores are also important. It's also great to have high ASTB scores and a good ranking from your unit CO.

UHBlackhawk said:

Actually, the best training for handling g loads is weight training and anaerobic training.
I did not fly fighters but I did teach aerobatics. While I did not do a study, it seemed the best ones at dealing with the +- g loads of aerobatics were short females. The ones who had it the toughest were skinny guys, long distance runners.
in my 40s about 30 minutes of aerobatics, constant +- gs was about my limit where I needed a break. I remember taking one female up for her first aerobatic flight who was about 5’3”, good shape, but not a runner. After 30 minutes of doing increasingly complex and high/low g maneuvers I asked if she was ready for a break. Nope. She was doing great.
Military instructors on the line might have different observations.

Defense Technical Information Center

apps.dtic.mil

Click to expand...

One of our USNA sponsor daughters was 5’6” and had been an elite figure skater then played ice hockey at USNA - core, ab and leg strength for days from those triple jumps. Got jets out of flight school. Routinely crushed or outlasted everyone, male or female, on that g-thingie rotating machine and any other g-force event.

Nothing fun about a 9g turn…. One of my last calls over the radio before I hung up the g suit for good “knock it off knock it off…too old”