Difficulty getting into the USNA

S

Shoreboy

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I meet a USNA class on 1970 grad yesterday In Annapolis. He said it was much easier getting in back in his day. Any stats to prove this?
 
I wouldn’t trust any stats that suggest this, unless the Vietnam war had a significant effect on number of applicants that applied.
 
The hardest year to get into USNA is the year(s) you apply. If you looked purely at data, standardized scores, GPAs, courses are higher than decades past. But, you have to look at the data of that time. GPAs were not what they are today. These 4.5 GPAs really didn’t exist. SATs overall were lower. It’s hard to gauge as standardized tests have changed over the years. The plethora of APs didn’t exist to the level today, the Internet, the number of kids going to 4 year colleges, over inflated GPAs, etc has all changed things not only for SA applicants but college in general is just different than decades past. There are more applicants today than in the past. But that has also ebbed and flowed due to society, politics, wars, etc. Then military in general was very different in the 70s and early 80s. It doesn’t mean SAs weren’t full of highly talented young men and eventually women.
 
I don’t know when it changed, but it’s interesting, because way back when there used to be a test that USNA sent out and if you passed the test you would get an appointment.
 
I agree with 'Hoops (as usual!). On paper, today's applicants are more qualified and I've sat through more than one Superintendent briefing where the Supe point blanks says that many of us wouldn't get in today. Along with this change in academic qualification is an increased emphasis on becoming a premier educational institution, some will say at the expense of being a premier military leadership institution. It is certainly a different place (some for the good, some maybe not), as is the military that graduates enter. It is much less N*T College than it used to be - and only time will tell how this kinder, gentler approach to USNA and the military in general will fare in the future.
 
NavyHoops said:
GPAs were not what they are today. These 4.5 GPAs really didn’t exist. SATs overall were lower. It’s hard to gauge as standardized tests have changed over the years. The plethora of APs didn’t exist to the level today, the Internet, the number of kids going to 4 year colleges, over inflated GPAs
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It was as different then as to pretty much not be comparable.
.
There was no such thing as an weighted GPA - Never heard of the concept until much later.
I didn't know anyone who had done any SAT prep - and high schools did not spend a semester or more prepping
people for it either as many have done in years since. There were SAT books that you could buy but I didn't and did not
know anyone who had used one.
.
Not many high school classes were curved - getting all A's in High School was pretty rare and A's at USNA for that matter were like
gold. Many more C's than A's which was why the average GPA/midpoint of the class was in the 2's. I was a bit over 2.7 and was well
above the middle of my class. My grad school grades were well over a full point above my USNA GPA.
I never saw an A as a plebe and maybe 1 or 2 as a 3/C.
.
No NASS or other similar programs. Many of us never saw USNA until arriving for I Day.
 
For the most part far fewer people applied to the academies back in the day. Only about 7200 +/- people applied for Annapolis in 1980. Of the 2100 that were qualified medically and academically, 1500 or so were offered admission. So pretty good odds there. I do know from friends that attended way back when (and via admissions). That it may have been easier to gain admission back then, but it was harder to stay in once you were there. Retention rates are way higher than they used to be. Also if interest, only about 5% of the class of 1980 were reapplicants…that’s a really big difference.
 
USMC Crayons said:
For the most part far fewer people applied to the academies back in the day. Only about 7200 +/- people applied for Annapolis in 1980. Of the 2100 that were qualified medically and academically, 1500 or so were offered admission. So pretty good odds there. I do know from friends that attended way back when (and via admissions). That it may have been easier to gain admission back then, but it was harder to stay in once you were there. Retention rates are way higher than they used to be. Also if interest, only about 5% of the class of 1980 were reapplicants…that’s a really big difference.
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I've been a BGO since the early 90's and have seen the numbers change more by how they defined (applicant) and less about the actual number of serious applicants. I don't want to be more definitive here but some of the applicants that we "count" have done VERY little toward actually applying.
 
OldRetSWO said:
I've been a BGO since the early 90's and have seen the numbers change more by how they defined (applicant) and less about the actual number of serious applicants. I don't want to be more definitive here but some of the applicants that we "count" have done VERY little toward actually applying.
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I thought I saw a report that listed number of applications started, completed, qualified, etc.
 
OldRetSWO said:
Lets just say that the official definition/recognition of "application started" has varied significantly over the years.
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If you're referring to what I think you are, the cat is out of the bag on that one. Apparently anyone who fills out the Summer Seminar interest form is considered an applicant, or at least used to be. This forum's favorite professor, Bruce Fleming, wrote about it in one of his colorful op-eds citing a FOIA request. Something like 70% of what were counted as applications were not complete. This made the admissions rate appear to be 7% when it actually floated around one in four (Which obviously is still quite selective).

Top universities in general are way more completive these days. In 1970 Stanford had an acceptance rate of 22% while today it is 4%, and the trend at the Ivy schools were similar. The number of seats in top universities' classes has not scaled in proportion to the increase in the number of smart kids applying to college, exacerbated by immigration from cultures that place a high value on academic achievement. Then you also have the modern arms race that is the admissions industry: SAT prep, "leadership camps" (whatever those are) and all sorts of extracurricular padding, AP going from meaning "Advanced Placement" to "All People can try it", and services that write--*ahem*, I mean, "tailor" your personal statement. Plus, it's now easier than ever to apply to a college. Other than the academies they almost all use the Common App. Just click a button and your application will be reviewed. That's much easier than handwriting a different paper application for each school and mailing them out, so why not apply everywhere? I wonder how the situation will further evolve over the next few decades.
 
Kierkegaard said:
If you're referring to what I think you are, the cat is out of the bag on that one. Apparently anyone who fills out the Summer Seminar interest form is considered an applicant, or at least used to be. This forum's favorite professor, Bruce Fleming, wrote about it in one of his colorful op-eds citing a FOIA request. Something like 70% of what were counted as applications were not complete. This made the admissions rate appear to be 7% when it actually floated around one in four (Which obviously is still quite selective).
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I was referring to more than just the summer seminar interest form. There have been other things that started getting used used over the years that have also been counted but were hardly any real attempt to apply. I do know that one of these measures was later discontinued but certainly made the numbers bigger for some time.


Kierkegaard said:
and services that write--*ahem*, I mean, "tailor" your personal statement.
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Quite a few applicants/potential applicants come on here and ask for us to help them write THEIR personal statement.
I wrote my personal statement and no, it didn't go via my English teacher or other reviewer back in the day. When my son applied to USNA in the mid-oughts, I did not review his essay and neither did my wife (college English Teacher). I don't know for sue if he had teachers at school look at them but knowing him, I doubt it.
 
Since the government has become involved in higher education, they have made higher education more accessible to more people, while in other cases inflating tuition to making it unaffordable for others.

One thing about it, my son qualifies for no financial assistance per his FASFA….but is having loans and credit cards offers sent to him daily. Academically he has a 4.6 GPA, but every university he’s applied to agrees to pay “half.” That half/tuition is so inflated due to the money universities receive via the federal government.

In the end the naval academy truly gives my son and those like him an amazing deal…if they can just get their foot in the door.
 
Kierkegaard said:
If you're referring to what I think you are, the cat is out of the bag on that one. Apparently anyone who fills out the Summer Seminar interest form is considered an applicant, or at least used to be. This forum's favorite professor, Bruce Fleming, wrote about it in one of his colorful op-eds citing a FOIA request. Something like 70% of what were counted as applications were not complete. This made the admissions rate appear to be 7% when it actually floated around one in four (Which obviously is still quite selective).

Top universities in general are way more completive these days. In 1970 Stanford had an acceptance rate of 22% while today it is 4%, and the trend at the Ivy schools were similar. The number of seats in top universities' classes has not scaled in proportion to the increase in the number of smart kids applying to college, exacerbated by immigration from cultures that place a high value on academic achievement. Then you also have the modern arms race that is the admissions industry: SAT prep, "leadership camps" (whatever those are) and all sorts of extracurricular padding, AP going from meaning "Advanced Placement" to "All People can try it", and services that write--*ahem*, I mean, "tailor" your personal statement. Plus, it's now easier than ever to apply to a college. Other than the academies they almost all use the Common App. Just click a button and your application will be reviewed. That's much easier than handwriting a different paper application for each school and mailing them out, so why not apply everywhere? I wonder how the situation will further evolve over the next few decades.
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Insightful. With regard to “tailoring” a personal statement, these days I do contract work for a firm focused on clients in career transition requiring assistance with senior executive resumes and federal Senior Executive Service Executive Core Qualifications narratives, a 10-page document. I appreciate the firm draws a line at actually writing things from scratch that are expected to be the product of the person’s own mind and ability to express their thoughts in writing. They don’t do writing samples, for example. I edit the heck out of things and make specific suggestions related to what the writer has failed to address or is not expressing clearly, but I don’t write it or offer examples to be used. Recently, the project coordinator asked me if I would consider a project related to service academy application and nominations essays, an unusual request, and I said “sure, if we are talking about basic editorial review and comment on an already-written document, but not if they want it completely written from a blank sheet.” The coordinator has not heard back from the prospective client.
 
I think the recent college admissions scandal WRT fraudulent athletic recruiting shows higher education's current place in American society. It has become an industry as pointed out already. I think it will continue in that direction. Look at NIL. Do I think players should get compensated if their NIL is used in a game or in an ad? Yes, absolutely. However, I don't really like the fact that athletic recruiting sometimes comes down how big of an NIL deal a school can offer. Obviously, the SAs don't fall into that.

What alarms me about society in general is the fact that a lot of people are coming out and saying that "I went to college, but I think it is a waste." I think the college experience is not just about academics. It is about life lessons. It teaches you to think critically about the world, how to be open-minded, and how to deal with the consequences that stem from the decisions you makes, among others things.

I will say one thing I love about being in the military is that it gives you a global view. Most daily events that occur in the US don't really affect the military, but actions/news in other nations certainly do. It also makes you understand the role the US plays in the international arena.
 
Old Navy BGO said:
Along with this change in academic qualification is an increased emphasis on becoming a premier educational institution, some will say at the expense of being a premier military leadership institution.
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This seems to be happening in Intermediate Leadership Education (ILE ie new O-4s). In the Army, CGSC is trying to mirror civilian institutions. It does not matter if the Major in front of you is a stone-cold killer who would vanquish his foe. That is not evaluated because the Army has no metric for that and instead focuses on accreditation and the idea that at cocktail parties in DC the civilian who went Ivy and regularly used psychedelic drugs will somehow have more respect and kinship with an ILE grad because measures of performance in ILE are becoming more like civilian grad school.
 
Usnavy2019 said:
What alarms me about society in general is the fact that a lot of people are coming out and saying that "I went to college, but I think it is a waste." I think the college experience is not just about academics. It is about life lessons. It teaches you to think critically about the world, how to be open-minded, and how to deal with the consequences that stem from the decisions you makes, among others things.
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I think at one time this was somewhat true, but as someone who has several recent college graduates in the family (and all of them went to relatively prestigious universities) critical thinking and being open minded are not exactly ideals that many universities embrace anymore. I am also not sure that paying six figures for life lessons is a good return on investment. I am probably the last generation that could truly work their way through most colleges. Once that became impossible, I think the lines have definitely started to blur on the value proposition, especially considering that many jobs don't really need a degree to be qualified...it's just an HR gateway that you have to pass.
 
Agree with @USMC Crayons, it's not just the students who may be revisiting the value proposition. With the current drop in the number of kids will come a tightening in the employment market that's going to force companies to review those "college degree required" standards. (In fact in some places it's started already.) It used to be a quick filter for finding someone who could read a little, write a little, talk to grownups and fill out forms, but there just aren't enough fresh BA/BS kids running around that can afford to take a $29k job as asst mgr at the car rental counter at the airport. They've got to make enough each month to pay $100 for the phone, $250 for the student loans, $1000 for their half of the rent, maybe a car payment, which would mean insurance money, plus they'll need to eat something, dress themselves, and all that assumes there was no credit card debt brought along from college. Last year the average college grad in MN made around $39k. Employers with jobs that pay less than that that aren't getting many applicants may find it necessary to drop the conceit that a bachelor's degree is really that important.
 
Trend here in eastern Kentucky is that college degrees are meaningless…especially in liberal arts. Big push on vocational education now. I guess the corporate welfare elite are getting nervous their ****ters won’t flush and their hvac will go out. IMO a very sad state we are In.
 
Usnavy2019 said:
I think the recent college admissions scandal WRT fraudulent athletic recruiting shows higher education's current place in American society. It has become an industry as pointed out already. I think it will continue in that direction. Look at NIL. Do I think players should get compensated if their NIL is used in a game or in an ad? Yes, absolutely. However, I don't really like the fact that athletic recruiting sometimes comes down how big of an NIL deal a school can offer. Obviously, the SAs don't fall into that.

What alarms me about society in general is the fact that a lot of people are coming out and saying that "I went to college, but I think it is a waste." I think the college experience is not just about academics. It is about life lessons. It teaches you to think critically about the world, how to be open-minded, and how to deal with the consequences that stem from the decisions you makes, among others things.

I will say one thing I love about being in the military is that it gives you a global view. Most daily events that occur in the US don't really affect the military, but actions/news in other nations certainly do. It also makes you understand the role the US plays in the international arena.
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Do you really think that 33 rich parents involved in an admissions scandal that unfolded over many years “shows educations current place in American society” ?

personally I think a forum like this shows educations current place in American society.

Just on these SA forums 100s 1000s of parents willing to spend many hours doing research, asking questions, helping their child and making things happen. It’s often the parents asking these questions not the child.

Many parents spending many $1000s on travel, sports HS and club, physical trainers, academic help, test help, etc etc etc.

Just for a chance at a scholarship or a SA

I know hard working non wealthy parents who will spend many $10000s a year just to send their DC to an elite private hs In the hopes their child will end up being a success in college.

Lucky kids.

Absolutely nothing like this that I was aware of in the 50s 60s even the 70s.
 
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