Meanwhile back in Ukraine

cb7893 said:
The point of my post was not to celebrate the the impressive successes of the Ukrainian military or to make light of the failures of the Russian military which has been routed a number of times in the past two hundred years. (I don't know where you came up with never really lost a conflict.) Rather it is to highlight a successful US military operation which has been ongoing since the invasion of Crimea.

The fact that most Americans don't know about the mission is a good thing.
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I said since 1917 Russia hasn't really lost a war, except for perhaps Afghanistan in the 1979-1989 conflict. You might add the Winter War of 1939-1940 vs. Finland, but even though they suffered huge casualties eventually Finland gave in to Soviet territorial demands. You might also add the failed Bolshevic invasion of Poland in 1920, which I previously forgot.

Manchuria 1938-1939. Russia wins.
Poland 1939. Russia wins.
Moldova 1940 (taken from Romania). Russia wins.
Baltic States 1940. Russia wins.
Great Patriotic War 1941-1945. Russia wins.
East Berlin 1953. Russia wins.
Hungary 1956. Russia wins.
Czechoslovakia 1968. Russia wins.
Border fighting with China 1969. Russia wins.
Poland 1981. Russia wins (not really a war though).
Chechnya 1991-2003 (or so). Russia wins.
Georgia 2008. Russia wins (taking Abkazia & South Ossetia from Georgia).
 
Day-Tripper said:
The Ukrainian army has gone from being one which surrendered its Crimean peninsula to Russia without firing a shot in 2014, to one of the best land forces on earth by 2022-2023
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And a most interesting study for exploiting commercial capabilities to either augment or straight out replace domains that were typically mil/intel. Commercial cell service, Starlink and messaging apps have been used to provide rather incredible c2. I’m sure the US and other supporters have been providing tons of capability in these areas, but reading some of the available osint about what Ukraine is doing with COTS is impressive. To the above poster who mentioned info/learning, there’s some big lessons here. And some really scary implications for the US wrt to adversaries. “Near Peer” is absolutely going to be redefined.
 
Day-Tripper said:
Yes, US & NATO arms have aided the Ukrainians immensely. But even more lavish military support was given to countries like South Vietnam, the Shah's Iran, post-Taliban (and pre-Taliban) Afghanistan, post-Saddam Iraq, etc. over the last 60 years which were wasted on armies which didn't fight.

The Ukrainians are a breath of fresh air in that respect.
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Good point. However, a big distinction is that those countries were divided within their politics even after they received aid. They were war-torn from years of conflict. The Ukrainians have it in their favor that they are united in purpose against an invader, instead of terrorist/extremist groups from within.
It's all about the political situation. Ukrainians aren't a smarter or more capable people than Vietnamese and Iranians.
 
aetosArmy said:
Good point. However, a big distinction is that those countries were divided within their politics even after they received aid. They were war-torn from years of conflict. The Ukrainians have it in their favor that they are united in purpose against an invader, instead of terrorist/extremist groups from within.
It's all about the political situation. Ukrainians aren't a smarter or more capable people than Vietnamese and Iranians.
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The Vietnamese won their civil war and kicked out the foreign invader (me) and now have a unified country. And theirs was a military win very much a military win and not a political solution.

A political solution in VN would have looked differently than the solid country you see today.

A political solution in the Ukraine for it to mean anything must be a defeated Russia going home having lost.

Those in the US that support Putin and Russia will talk about the need for peace and for a stop to the war. And the US budget. That is political code for let’s help Putin without actual saying——let’s help Putin.

Russia or more specific Putin has a lot of in the closet support in the US.

The clock is ticking on Ukraine——-they need major wins before the next US election.
 
This idea that one can be anti-war after being told of WMD in Iraq that wasn’t true and years of Afghanistan, and knowing of corruption in Ukraine … makes one pro Putin or pro Russia - is comical at best, and I will leave out what it is at worst …

Haven’t we had enough of the Russian nonsense? There are plenty of people that are serving this country that are against war and for peace - that aren’t closeted russian sympathizers.
 
Peace——US budget——and Ukraine corruption.

Those will be the main pillars , that one presidential candidate is already running on with TV ads.

These will be the talking points that will help genius Putin and gut the Ukraine resistance. A quick google and you can see who those supporters of putin are.

These US political supporters of Genius Putin may be Putin’s only hope of pulling out victory.

The war in ukraine is about to get very very political here at home in the US
 
A1Janitor said:
This idea that one can be anti-war after being told of WMD in Iraq that wasn’t true and years of Afghanistan, and knowing of corruption in Ukraine … makes one pro Putin or pro Russia - is comical at best, and I will leave out what it is at worst …

Haven’t we had enough of the Russian nonsense? There are plenty of people that are serving this country that are against war and for peace - that aren’t closeted russian sympathizers.
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Peace. For Ukraine that means surrendering their nationhood & becoming, again, a Russian province.

Peace. For Russia that means a cease fire giving them time to regroup & prepare for renewed warfare.

Peace only works when both sides of a war have given up on victory and are exhausted. That sitiation does not exist in eastern Europe in 2023.
 
Day-Tripper said:
Peace. For Ukraine that means surrendering their nationhood & becoming, again, a Russian province.

Peace. For Russia that means a cease fire giving them time to regroup & prepare for renewed warfare.

Peace only works when both sides of a war have given up on victory and are exhausted. That sitiation does not exist in eastern Europe in 2023.
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I have to read up on what happened in 2014 when they had democratic elections and the subsequent coup. And the parties involved.

And when Russia took Crimea and what the US response was. I think it was Obama and sanctions were the punishment iirc.
 
Small Team Bacsi said:
Peace——US budget——and Ukraine corruption.

Those will be the main pillars , that one presidential candidate is already running on with TV ads.

These will be the talking points that will help genius Putin and gut the Ukraine resistance. A quick google and you can see who those supporters of putin are.

These US political supporters of Genius Putin may be Putin’s only hope of pulling out victory.

The war in ukraine is about to get very very political here at home in the US
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Just because someone disagrees with you does not make them stupid or evil. Many of those you tar as Putin supporters don't view what happens in Ukraine as vital to US interests, and as such, not worthy of spending tens of billions of taxpayer dollars.
I think they are short sighted as to the follow-on effects of allowing such aggression, but it doesn't necessarily make them fans of Putin.
 
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I’m Ok with Pence, Haley, Reagan, Thatcher …

Bone spurs & Putin are best buds … can’t have that …

Btw … Putin has to go … spend every dollar until the job is done
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Still with the russia hoax and slurs against the former commander in chief.

No need for it.
 
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A1Janitor said:
Still with the russia hoax and slurs against the former commander in chief.

No need for it.
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So because Trump was accused of being pro-Putin (rightly or wrongly), 45 million Ukrainian human beings must either perish or accept being re-classified as Russians, at the point of a gun?

All to placate the cult of personality surrounding America's 45th president?

Bottom line: Invading countries to conquer them & murder their citizens is wrong....unless somehow it makes Trump look bad. Then its cool?

Nothing personal, but that line of thinking just sucks.
 
Day-Tripper said:
So because Trump was accused of being pro-Putin (rightly or wrongly), 45 million Ukrainian human beings must either perish or accept being re-classified as Russians, at the point of a gun?

All to placate the cult of personality surrounding America's 45th president?

Bottom line: Invading countries to conquer them & murder their citizens is wrong....unless somehow it makes Trump look bad. Then its cool?

Nothing personal, but that line of thinking just sucks.
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I don’t take it personal at all. It isn’t what I said.

I am talking about the rules of the forum with the constant slurs against a former commander in chief.

I won’t provide a response to the politics of it because that is the forum rules. That doesn’t mean I couldn’t.
 
A1Janitor said:
I don’t take it personal at all. It isn’t what I said.

I am talking about the rules of the forum with the constant slurs against a former commander in chief.

I won’t provide a response to the politics of it because that is the forum rules. That doesn’t mean I couldn’t.
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Fair enough. Perhaps I misread your post.
 
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