Initial Flight Training

Flight school is a marathon, not a sprint. My nephew was Marines and it was over 5 years from college graduation to finishing RAG.

@mama mia. I believe the most important element to successfully becoming a Pilot is that you don’t quit, spiritually, mentally, and habitually.

If your son didn’t do PFP at USAFA, and it sounds he didn’t, IFT can be hard and nerve-racking. There’s a lot of academics to cover, much of it is volume. So good study discipline is key. You can practice with simulator at home before doing the real thing in air. Like many posters have said, some people have it, some take longer, and some will hate it.

UPT sounds like the Navy Primary phase where upon graduation you get selected to jets or big wings to go on to Intermediate and Advanced Training. Your DS has a long way to go to make Pilot so this is the time to consolidate what he knows and what he needs to know. Party less and put your head down and learn with humility. Ask others what he cannot understand. There are many who’s gone through this flight path and understand his pain.

My DS just finished his Navy Primary and got assigned to strike jet platform. So he’ll be flying either the F/A18 Super Hornet or the E/A18G Growler upon graduating Advanced in 2024. He’s class of 2022 USNA. He graduated PFP (Powered Flight Program), only offered at the Naval Academy and Air Force Academy. PFP is a scaled down fast track version of Navy NIFE training.

But in his Firstie year, the Nuclear Navy thought it was a good idea to draft him to Nuclear. His heart sank in disbelief. He respectfully asked the 4-Star Nuclear ADM to allow him to pursue Aviation career in the Navy. Only 5 brave men were allowed to go Aviation from Nuke select. It took him 5 months to get out of Nuclear and to get reassigned to Aviation before graduation. By then, Pilot billet was gone so they offered him NFO-Naval Flight Officer. At NAS Pensacola, he helped both Student Pilots and Student NFOs to get through NIFE (IFT in Air Force). Once he moved on to mid phase Primary, he knew through conversations with his instructors that he may get his first choice to Jets.

DS is now contemplating double winging NFO/Pilot after he finishes his first sea tour, to return to Student Pilot training as a Lieutenant. He wants to go back to his squadron to Pilot the same aircraft he will be flying as EWO or WSO. Probably will be the most senior student Pilot by that time. Nevertheless, he can live the dream of his great grandfather who flew the Air Force P51, Saber, and F4 and retired as General after serving 35 years.

If you want it, you can do it! Just don’t quit! And be grateful with what you have now and what you can do with it!

Fly Navy!

Not saying "double winging" isn't possible, but in my nine years in the Navy I've never seen a single one. Closest thing I ever saw was a NFO student who got kicked out of the Strike NFO syllabus for not cutting it and transferred over to the Helo pilot syllabus. It just isn't worth it for the Navy to take someone who's already been trained in one thing and put them through years of training again just because they want to.

CrewDad said:

@mama mia. I believe the most important element to successfully becoming a Pilot is that you don’t quit, spiritually, mentally, and habitually.

If your son didn’t do PFP at USAFA, and it sounds he didn’t, IFT can be hard and nerve-racking. There’s a lot of academics to cover, much of it is volume. So good study discipline is key. You can practice with simulator at home before doing the real thing in air. Like many posters have said, some people have it, some take longer, and some will hate it.

UPT sounds like the Navy Primary phase where upon graduation you get selected to jets or big wings to go on to Intermediate and Advanced Training. Your DS has a long way to go to make Pilot so this is the time to consolidate what he knows and what he needs to know. Party less and put your head down and learn with humility. Ask others what he cannot understand. There are many who’s gone through this flight path and understand his pain.

My DS just finished his Navy Primary and got assigned to strike jet platform. So he’ll be flying either the F/A18 Super Hornet or the E/A18G Growler upon graduating Advanced in 2024. He’s class of 2022 USNA. He graduated PFP (Powered Flight Program), only offered at the Naval Academy and Air Force Academy. PFP is a scaled down fast track version of Navy NIFE training.

But in his Firstie year, the Nuclear Navy thought it was a good idea to draft him to Nuclear. His heart sank in disbelief. He respectfully asked the 4-Star Nuclear ADM to allow him to pursue Aviation career in the Navy. Only 5 brave men were allowed to go Aviation from Nuke select. It took him 5 months to get out of Nuclear and to get reassigned to Aviation before graduation. By then, Pilot billet was gone so they offered him NFO-Naval Flight Officer. At NAS Pensacola, he helped both Student Pilots and Student NFOs to get through NIFE (IFT in Air Force). Once he moved on to mid phase Primary, he knew through conversations with his instructors that he may get his first choice to Jets.

DS is now contemplating double winging NFO/Pilot after he finishes his first sea tour, to return to Student Pilot training as a Lieutenant. He wants to go back to his squadron to Pilot the same aircraft he will be flying as EWO or WSO. Probably will be the most senior student Pilot by that time. Nevertheless, he can live the dream of his great grandfather who flew the Air Force P51, Saber, and F4 and retired as General after serving 35 years.

If you want it, you can do it! Just don’t quit! And be grateful with what you have now and what you can do with it!

Fly Navy!

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gonavy14 said:

Not saying "double winging" isn't possible, but in my nine years in the Navy I've never seen a single one. Closest thing I ever saw was a NFO student who got kicked out of the Strike NFO syllabus for not cutting it and transferred over to the Helo pilot syllabus. It just isn't worth it for the Navy to take someone who's already been trained in one thing and put them through years of training again just because they want to.

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I have a classmate and friend who was an A6 B/N and then became a pilot so I know that double winging has been done.
A selection from his online bio.

U.S. Naval Academy graduate; Naval Aviator; Naval Flight Officer; Naval Parachutist; U.S. Army Parachutist. Logged over 6,000 accident-free flight hours in Navy aircraft; the majority in the A-6 Intruder and A-4 Skyhawk. Logged arrested landings on nine different aircraft carriers

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gonavy14 said:

Not saying "double winging" isn't possible, but in my nine years in the Navy I've never seen a single one. Closest thing I ever saw was a NFO student who got kicked out of the Strike NFO syllabus for not cutting it and transferred over to the Helo pilot syllabus. It just isn't worth it for the Navy to take someone who's already been trained in one thing and put them through years of training again just because they want to.

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I’m guessing LCDR Kim didn’t get the memo…

I know the topic has drifted, but this is the Service Academy Forums and that’s expected.
While the Navy isn’t quite as good about it as the Army and Air Force, the military is very good at letting you “re-invent yourself”. I’ve known numerous pilots who started out doing something else and changed several times. Navy aircraft mechanic, SEAL, Army pilot. Logistics officer, pilot, doctor. Armor officer, JAG. Heck, in another thread one of the fatalities in the 160th crash was former artillery officer who reverted to warrant officer in order to attend flight school. I’ve known numerous Army and Navy pilots who transferred to the Air Force Reserve/National Guard.
So if you want something don’t let some anonymous person on a forum tell you it can’t be done.

UHBlackhawk said:

I know the topic has drifted, but this is the Service Academy Forums and that’s expected.
While the Navy isn’t quite as good about it as the Army and Air Force, the military is very good at letting you “re-invent yourself”. I’ve known numerous pilots who started out doing something else and changed several times. Navy aircraft mechanic, SEAL, Army pilot. Logistics officer, pilot, doctor. Armor officer, JAG. Heck, in another thread one of the fatalities in the 160th crash was former artillery officer who reverted to warrant officer in order to attend flight school. I’ve known numerous Army and Navy pilots who transferred to the Air Force Reserve/National Guard.
So if you want something don’t let some anonymous person on a forum tell you it can’t be done.

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That's interesting to hear. A friend's son who is a senior AFROTC got helicopters but is questioning his choice and thinking he may want heavies. But apparently, he feels he can't change now and will have to stick with helos.

UHBlackhawk said:

I know the topic has drifted, but this is the Service Academy Forums and that’s expected.
While the Navy isn’t quite as good about it as the Army and Air Force, the military is very good at letting you “re-invent yourself”. I’ve known numerous pilots who started out doing something else and changed several times. Navy aircraft mechanic, SEAL, Army pilot. Logistics officer, pilot, doctor. Armor officer, JAG. Heck, in another thread one of the fatalities in the 160th crash was former artillery officer who reverted to warrant officer in order to attend flight school. I’ve known numerous Army and Navy pilots who transferred to the Air Force Reserve/National Guard.
So if you want something don’t let some anonymous person on a forum tell you it can’t be done.

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Question - if a Naval Aviator earns wings, completes service commitment, and for whatever reason wants to transfer from Navy active duty to the Air National Guard/ AF reserve- I'm assuming there would be a level of AF/ ANG OCS training for say the AF courtesies/ customs/ procedures and also airframe qual training for the new aircraft. Curious - would they start over as a 2nd LT say in the AF, or do they keep any level of comparable rank in the new / future branch- LT Commander Navy switches branches, starts new service as a ______? Pure curiosity / data gathering from a curious parent, DS is living his dream as a pilot so no plans to pull the seinfeld girlfriend roommate switch - just curious about the options. Any insight appreciated.

unkown1961 said:

That's interesting to hear. A friend's son who is a senior AFROTC got helicopters but is questioning his choice and thinking he may want heavies. But apparently, he feels he can't change now and will have to stick with helos.

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Short term, he’s flying helicopters. After his ADSO if he decides to leave active duty that depends on the needs of the Air Guard/Reserve units. At least two pilots from my Army flight school class transferred to the Air Guard/Reserves after their ADSO. One flew RF-4S, the other A-10s.

Herman_Snerd said:

Question - if a Naval Aviator earns wings, completes service commitment, and for whatever reason wants to transfer from Navy active duty to the Air National Guard/ AF reserve- I'm assuming there would be a level of AF/ ANG OCS training for say the AF courtesies/ customs/ procedures and also airframe qual training for the new aircraft. Curious - would they start over as a 2nd LT say in the AF, or do they keep any level of comparable rank in the new / future branch- LT Commander Navy switches branches, starts new service as a ______? Pure curiosity / data gathering from a curious parent, DS is living his dream as a pilot so no plans to pull the seinfeld girlfriend roommate switch - just curious about the options. Any insight appreciated.

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As I wrote in the answer above, it depends on needs. I’m not sure how much “officer” training they do. I think they transfer over at the same rank, but not 100% sure. I’ve known some O-3s who transferred to the Coast Guard and they dropped down to O-2. That was to help them get seasoned as a Coast Guard pilot before needing to compete for Billy’s leading to O-4. When I transferred to the Army Guard they only had warrant positions open, so I reverted from major to CW2.

Herman_Snerd said:

Question - if a Naval Aviator earns wings, completes service commitment, and for whatever reason wants to transfer from Navy active duty to the Air National Guard/ AF reserve- I'm assuming there would be a level of AF/ ANG OCS training for say the AF courtesies/ customs/ procedures and also airframe qual training for the new aircraft. Curious - would they start over as a 2nd LT say in the AF, or do they keep any level of comparable rank in the new / future branch- LT Commander Navy switches branches, starts new service as a ______? Pure curiosity / data gathering from a curious parent, DS is living his dream as a pilot so no plans to pull the seinfeld girlfriend roommate switch - just curious about the options. Any insight appreciated.

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We have a USNA sponsor alumni family son who:
- got Navy air out of USNA, commissioned as an ensign, got helos, just missed cut for jet pipeline, his dream.
- while in transition period at Pensacola before reporting to rotor pipeline, Marine Corps came out and said, hey we have 15 jet seats we can’t fill, if you meet these criteria and Navy lets you go, apply. He was one of 60 or so who applied and got it. ***This is a rare thing. Think pink unicorns. ****
- first of the month, he was separated from Navy and commissioned a USMC 2LT or 1LT, I forget. It was equivalent. Scramble for uniforms. Continued jet pipeline. At some point when it made sense during training, his special group went to TBS, because all Marine officers have to go. Flew Harriers for Marines.
- meanwhile, creates with super-understanding wife, a family of 4 kids. She finally threw in the towel with numerous combat deployments, he wanted to be a more present dad, and he got out as a major.
- looked around. Went to interview with CO of an active ANG squadron at hometown AFB. They happily took him in as a major. He made LtCol in the Air National Guard as a full-time Guard pilot in his and wife’s hometown. Family thrilled. He is currently commanding a drone squadron.
- will retire as an O-5. Already has a job offer to a major airline. I think they figured out pretty quickly he was an adaptable guy, fast learner and team player. He was thrilled. He was also a star attraction at his recent 20th reunion at USNA. He is also one of the kindest, smartest, best-hearted people we have ever watched grow from a 17 year old plebe to the “Renaissance pilot” he is today. We joke he has to figure out how to take a turn at Coast Guard and Army Aviation, then work for Space Force after he leaves airlines.

All kinds of things can happen. The one common driver it has to suit the needs of the service.

unkown1961 said:

That's interesting to hear. A friend's son who is a senior AFROTC got helicopters but is questioning his choice and thinking he may want heavies. But apparently, he feels he can't change now and will have to stick with helos.

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It is a bit more difficult now than in the past. The AF separated the fixed-wing and helo training programs. Now, students don't all start in fixed wing. That will make switching later a bit tougher.

Mama Mia did your son end up finishing IFT or still there going strong? Just curious how it ended up and if all good where’s he headed to UPT and does he have a start date yet ?

raimius said:

It is a bit more difficult now than in the past. The AF separated the fixed-wing and helo training programs. Now, students don't all start in fixed wing. That will make switching later a bit tougher.

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On a quasi-related note, for Navy, it has been SOP that rotating/ fixed wing all start together, then branch out for additional training. However, that for helo pilots may be changing - for upcoming classes who are through A-POOL and in queue to start NIFE, those who identify/ make it clear they wish to serve as rotating wing pilots may have a new pathway where they will head to more specialized rotating wing training sooner instead of all starting and getting through NIFE/ Primary together with their fixed-wing brethren. Don't ask me what you define the Osprey as - fixed vs rotating (depends, sometimes one then sometimes the other?) (ah, a little aviation humor).

Well my DS finished IFT and is headed back to his base. He was scheduled to start UPT end of January but just found out today he is starting next week. Doesn’t give him but 3 days to study and memorize a **** ton of Boldface and emergency procedures. He’s stressing hard, thought he had almost two months to study and now only couple days. Probably also means he won’t be coming home for Christmas so at least he got to come home for 3 days over Thanksgiving. Good news is he will get UPT started early and doesn’t have to wait as long as many others before him have Had to wait.

UPT bases have Christmas off, now it depends on how short a trip he is willing to make (might only be Christmas day, with airlines...taking the 24th and 26th).

He can probably get the BF/OL sheet in 3 days. It's 2 pages.

My son said Flight school is harder than USAFA. Unfortunately, some don't make it. My son went on to train people in the T6 for 3 years, now he is qualified to train people on the C-130.
Unfortunately, one of his beat friends and roommates from USAFA did not make the cut. This young man went to USAFA after graduating from a very good 4 year college. He went because he wanted to be a pilot. After not making it as a pilot, he was assigned to Intelligence. He seems to like it, but he spent 4 years after college going thru USAFA and got another degree.
It broke my heart when I was told that he got dropped, but he seems to have taken it in stride.
Not everyone of the candidates will make it, but it is probably best for them and the AF.
Good luck to your son. He is a difficult path that I know affects us as the parents.

Bigrod said:

Well my DS finished IFT and is headed back to his base. He was scheduled to start UPT end of January but just found out today he is starting next week. Doesn’t give him but 3 days to study and memorize a **** ton of Boldface and emergency procedures. He’s stressing hard, thought he had almost two months to study and now only couple days. Probably also means he won’t be coming home for Christmas so at least he got to come home for 3 days over Thanksgiving. Good news is he will get UPT started early and doesn’t have to wait as long as many others before him have Had to wait.

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I am confused. What Boldface does he have to study? If he hasnt even made to UPT yet, there is nothing to memorize. Everything needed to know will be provided when he gets there and and will have enough study time to memorize this stuff. As for Christmas, pretty much everything related to flying is shut down. He will have at least a week off where he can travel. I think my son came home for maybe a week and half. Its been several years now, so i could be mistaken

DevilDog said:

My son said Flight school is harder than USAFA. Unfortunately, some don't make it. My son went on to train people in the T6 for 3 years, now he is qualified to train people on the C-130.
Unfortunately, one of his beat friends and roommates from USAFA did not make the cut. This young man went to USAFA after graduating from a very good 4 year college. He went because he wanted to be a pilot. After not making it as a pilot, he was assigned to Intelligence. He seems to like it, but he spent 4 years after college going thru USAFA and got another degree.
It broke my heart when I was told that he got dropped, but he seems to have taken it in stride.
Not everyone of the candidates will make it, but it is probably best for them and the AF.
Good luck to your son. He is a difficult path that I know affects us as the parents.

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I will be honest and say that its is hard to believe that flight school is harder than USAFA. My son was a 3.0 GPA student at best in college and high school and never had a chance to go to USAFA. My son aced the flight academics and he isn't the type of person who spends hours studying. He also did well during flying but he had the advantage of his college major being professional flight so he came in with fight hours. Its hard for some people, not because its too hard but rather they don't have a feel for flying. They can pretty much teach anyone to fly, but some people have skills they were born with that allows them to be better pilot.

Humey said:

I am confused. What Boldface does he have to study? If he hasnt even made to UPT yet, there is nothing to memorize. Everything needed to know will be provided when he gets there and and will have enough study time to memorize this stuff. As for Christmas, pretty much everything related to flying is shut down. He will have at least a week off where he can travel. I think my son came home for maybe a week and half. Its been several years now, so i could be mistaken

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Well, he was led to believe he needed Boldface, OPS limits and emergency procedures memorized and would be tested on the first day like it was for IFT. He has talked to others in a class or two ahead of him that have said you don’t need those memorized until day 1 of part 2 after the Academic weeks so he feels way better to start Success week tomorrow. As far as Christmas break, I hope you’re right but he hasn’t been told how much time off he will get yet for Christmas break.