USAFA Gymnastics

Deep breaths Pima! Haha! Can tell this has hit a nerve, but I also agree with you. I have met very respectful, mature 17-18 year olds who were not attending a SA (some more respectful and mature than 40 year olds I've met.)

Here's how I see the problem: many young people everywhere don't understand that perception IS reality. It doesn't matter that the firstie or doolie is an awesome person/great leader/etc. All we hear is that a cadet broke an oath. A very serious oath at a SA where character and honesty is most important. That's the reality.

On top of that, cadets are our future AF leaders... and a few broke an oath. Ok, I'm going to make this sound more severe than it might be depending on the situation. But remember this - once you're in the real world, you will meet people who won't like your career choice, won't like that you're an American, won't like you because <fill in the blank>. If you can't keep a simple oath now, how do you expect people to believe that will you keep from embarrassing yourself or your country later? How can you expect people to believe that you will keep your promises? Cadets are held to a higher standard for very good reasons.
 
Haley,

I mean this with kindness, but the problem with forums like this is it can be misinterpreted very quickly.

Trust me, I have been taken out to the woodshed ALOT!

I am with Blackbird on this issue.

I would also like to point out your 30 times more mature could be read as offensive and arrogant. With that comment I wonder do you hang with your GFs from HS over breaks?

I believe my 3 kids had a maturity level at the same level as you.

Sorry, but I was truly offended by the 30x comment.

I hope and believe that if they attended a college that places character into the equation, they would not find some lame arse excuse to remove their selves from a situation that they know did not adhere to the dotted line they sign on when accepting an appointment.

You are giving a pass IMPHO for breaking the regs.

I have to say, sorry I will not agree with you if your defense is 30x more mature! 30x more mature means when you broke the reg you wore 30x more aware it was wrong!

The military is very clear cut on what is expected. Heck, as a senior in HS when you turn 18, your folks are locked out because you are no longer a minor!

This life is something you volunteer for and accepted on I Day. You knew drinking underage was not allowed!
~ Your defense, they screwed up because of being young!

I get your stance, but have yet to understand why AFA cadets should or shouldn't be kicked out. They broke the law for underage drinking and were caught. Can yo say with true belief they followed the honor code? 1 drink underage at the AFA or at abr says to me you broke the code!

I will step down a minute and say you are absolutely right. I didn't mean it in that way at all and I apologize for offending you and anyone here. What I SHOULD HAVE said is that it takes a certain level of maturity to commit to something bigger to yourself and to have that kind of foresight. I would most certainly include your son in that category, and some of my civilian friends as well. However, the average 18-24 year old nowadays is much more concerned about the distractions in their life. I HOPE, at least, that the average cadet is more mature than the average college student. That being said.. not every college student is average, and not every cadet is worthy of being a cadet.

Anyways, I would like to point out that I never said that they screwed up because they are young, I believe they screwed up because they are not perfect. When the lack of judgement was not corrected at moment one, it became just a common thing that spiraled out of control- it became a culture. I would never argue that they don't deserve any punishment, or that they should be babied, etc. because we are all better than that. At the same time.. I do not generally consider myself a person of mercy, because I hold myself to high standards and expect the same from my classmates, but I do believe that calling the men involved a "disgrace", and that saying they should be given the harshest of consequences is not fair, because I understand that sometimes we mess up. Maybe I haven't made mistakes at this level of severity.. but at the same time, I can recognize that I have made mistakes.

Lastly, drinking alcohol underage is not an integrity issue. I have clarified this several times with cadets in charge of honor in the past. Does that mean that you're good to go and do whatever the heck you want? Of course not. Unless you lie about what happened, you will not get an honor hit for drinking underage. That doesn't make it a good decision and it doesn't mean you shouldn't get the appropriate discipline for it.

I believe that USAFA has handled the situation accordingly. I don't think the ICs have gotten any preferential treatment- the academy didn't have anything to gain by keeping this 2014er here for late grad, because he can't compete for us or anything along those lines.

Again I apologize if I have offended anyone. I do not mean to come off as arrogant in any way. I just meant to explain my perspective. Like I said before everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I don't mean to stifle the importance of that. However, I would be lying if I said I weren't tired of hearing about the academy painted in a negative light- and perhaps that wasn't even Blackbird's intention, but at the same time the longer people talk about it the longer we're ALL looked at as "dirtbags". I say all of us, because if one cadet takes a hit, we all do. I am sorry that I let that get the best of me. Hopefully this post comes off as better versed and kinder than my last.
 
Lastly, drinking alcohol underage is not an integrity issue. I have clarified this several times with cadets in charge of honor in the past. Does that mean that you're good to go and do whatever the heck you want? Of course not. Unless you lie about what happened, you will not get an honor hit for drinking underage. That doesn't make it a good decision and it doesn't mean you shouldn't get the appropriate discipline for it.

If I say I won't engage in an activity and then do engage in said activity is that different than engaging in an activity and then saying I didn't?
 
If I say I won't engage in an activity and then do engage in said activity is that different than engaging in an activity and then saying I didn't?

Cadets do not make any written or verbal statements vowing not to drink under age.
 
Haleym,
Maybe they did not emphasize it enough at your prep school or your ALO did not make it clear enough when you signed the alcohol and drug abuse form that underage drinking is frowned upon and is against the law.
 
Haleym,

I am pretty sure you signed a piece of paper that said I would not do anything illegal!

Drinking under the age of 21 is illegal. Don't believe me ... Go to a bar and ask them why they won't serve you when they card you. If they don't card you and serve you, show them your ID proving your are underage and see how quickly the drink is pulled and the manager is talking to you! Have your friend drive your car and run a stop light in front of a police officer. They will get a ticket, for 50 bucks, but in the state of VA they can pull your license until you are 21 even as a passenger.

Caveat: Some states have laws in place that a parent or guardian can give alcohol to minors in specific circumstances, I.E. their home or a private function,, but the last time I checked the AFA, nor any C1/2C are your guardians.

Heck, in two/three years when you go for your TS clearance remind your references that they should answer YES to the agent when asked about you drinking alcohol underage. Bullet just got his 5th TS clearance last year, and they still ask his references about alcohol. Now the question is how often he imbibes.
~ Something you have yet to think about. Yes, they ask that question, and right now those cadets TS clearance can be in jeopardy.
~~ Do they keep spending taxpayer dollars if they are now questionable as a cadet?

JMPO, but I don't think you get how serious ADAF takes alcohol issues. The AFA is giving the cadets a clue, this new AF will not accept it anymore.

I also find your defense of we didn't sign any paperwork regarding underage drinking a little disconcerting, especially since DoDMERB and AFROTC scholarship cadets are required to sign that type of paperwork to contract.
 
Last edited:
You agree to follow the UCMJ. There is no specific vow that holds you accountable in regards to the honor code when it come to underage drinking.
This is the rule. I didn't make it- I just abide by it.
I'm done commenting on this topic. This has reminded me of why I went rogue.
I hope you all have a good weekend regardless.
 
Than you agree by the UCMJ they broke the law? Correct? They either were underage or maybe supplied alcohol to minors. That is illegal.

That brings us full circle to why if the AFA decides to make them repay it is fair to some posters. The we/they are young and will make mistakes does not fly. They broke the law, and thus, through your own post the AFA has the right to come after them via the UCMJ. You all signed a legal document agreeing to this high level of standards. Bringing in peers in a traditional college setting is just a red herring.
~ Those peers never signed that type of commitment.


Now for those that were just there and watched underage cadets drink, that is an honor code issue IMPO and they shouldn't be held at the same level.

Let's remember that it is most likely every cadets punishment will vary based on the results of their investigation.
 
Last edited:
Than you agree by the UCMJ they broke the law? Correct? They either were underage or maybe supplied alcohol to minors. That is illegal.

That brings us full circle to why if the AFA decides to make them repay it is fair to some posters. The we/they are young and will make mistakes does not fly. They broke the law, and thus, through your own post the AFA has the right to come after them via the UCMJ. You all signed a legal document agreeing to this high level of standards. Bringing in peers in a traditional college setting is just a red herring.
~ Those peers never signed that type of commitment.


Now for those that were just there and watched underage cadets drink, that is an honor code issue IMPO and they shouldn't be held at the same level.

Let's remember that it is most likely every cadets punishment will vary based on the results of their investigation.
Pima, you consistently try to expand the Honor System beyond how USAFA views it. Regulatory and even criminal violations are not necessarily honor hits. If it is not lying, cheating, stealing, or tolerating one of the first 3, the USAFA honor system does not address that. So, in an underage drinking case, there may be UCMJ violations without Honor Code violations unless someone lied about something or stole it.
While we should always try to uphold our standards and hold our peer accountable for the same, it would not be an honor violation to fail to report underage drinking. The USAFA conception of Honor, as it pertains to disciplinary actions is not as expansive as some people's personal definitions of honor. The USAFA code is simply a baseline that is pretty black and white.
 
...It would not be an honor violation to fail to report underage drinking. The USAFA conception of Honor, as it pertains to disciplinary actions is not as expansive as some people's personal definitions of honor. The USAFA code is simply a baseline that is pretty black and white.

"Tolerating" for situations like this involving underage drinking will not get the "tolerator" in trouble. This is in order to discourage people from refusing to help people in need of a wingman/DD for fear of getting in trouble themselves. It is not an honor related situation unless they lie about it.
 
Mistakes

Not sure of the details but these kids are still young and maybe can still learn from mistakes. Preferential treatment because ic absolutely not. If underage drinking only maybe once or twice a shame if it ends the career of a cadet if truly sorry. They are still kids. Kids that aren't in a regular college environment and able to make mistakes and learn, I know. Like I said I don't know details but first offense ruining a career, being kicked out, and sent a bill doesn't seem to fit the error as mentioned above.
 
The key word for me here is "pattern." This suggests it wasn't a one time thing, but an ongoing and frequent behavior.

The question that comes to mind is why was it addressed now and not sooner? Why wasn't it nipped in the bud when it was a "one time oops got carried away and was stupid" thing?

Was this a matter of one or more people in charge looking the other way for too long until something so bad happened that it couldn't be ignored any more? And if that is the case, then aren't they enablers to some extent, and is the administration addressing this issue as well?

I think we can all agree that young people can sometimes do stupid things. I think we can all agree that when it happens, someone aught to "smack them up side the head" and tell them to knock it off, make wiser decisions and if you do it again, the penalty will be more severe.

My concern here is not so much with stupid behavior but with the fact that it was allowed to develop into a pattern of behavior before it was addressed.
 
The key word for me here is "pattern." This suggests it wasn't a one time thing, but an ongoing and frequent behavior.

The question that comes to mind is why was it addressed now and not sooner? Why wasn't it nipped in the bud when it was a "one time oops got carried away and was stupid" thing?

Was this a matter of one or more people in charge looking the other way for too long until something so bad happened that it couldn't be ignored any more? And if that is the case, then aren't they enablers to some extent, and is the administration addressing this issue as well?

I think we can all agree that young people can sometimes do stupid things. I think we can all agree that when it happens, someone aught to "smack them up side the head" and tell them to knock it off, make wiser decisions and if you do it again, the penalty will be more severe.

My concern here is not so much with stupid behavior but with the fact that it was allowed to develop into a pattern of behavior before it was addressed.

I know for a fact that this is an assumption and you know what they say about assumptions... These types of posts are what fuel these stories and blow them out of proportion. This really damages the image of all cadets because whenever these stories predominate the headlines with all the speculation and negativity, the other side of the cadet wing, where there are so many cadets doing amazing things, gets swept under the carpet.

I am in no way diminishing the severity of what happened. These men are reaping the consequences of their actions. There are many details, however, that the vast majority of people aren't privy to. Snap judgments and raising false speculation never really help the situation, IMPO.

You all can say what you want, however, please consider the impact of what you say.
 
I think I'll go to the Winchester, have a nice cold pint, and wait for all of this to blow over.
 
Raimius,

Again internet forums are hard to have a true discussion due to lag time regarding responses.

My last post stated agreement with Haleym. It is a UCMJ issue. I also stated in the post you quoted that the punishments handed out will vary.

In the end of the day,the AFA and AF will determine the punishment.

I think panties got in a wad because of emotions.
I.E Haley stated she was tired of USAFA being painted in a negative light.
~ Guess what? This will happen in ADAF too!

If I had a dollar for every time I was told Bullet made a million plus flight pay in a condescending tone, he would have made million plus flight pay! OBTW, I have sat through holiday dinners and told straight to my face that we are WAR MONGERS!

This is the life cadets will face for years!

Do you think that the military members that have endured the missikear scandal have not been painted in a negative light too?

It happens.

However, in this case, the defense is we are young and will make mistakes!

Yes, you are young! Yes, you will make mistakes, BUT here is the big difference...you all were thrilled when you received that big cardboard check at your HS ceremony stating it was worth hundreds of thousands of dollars!
~ That is my tax dollars! This is not a college with an endowment from alumni that gave a full ride merit.

More importantly, because of sequestration that will last for 9 more years, and ADAF is cutting personnel why should we keep paying tax dollars to keep them if they have, according to USAF, illustrated unprofessional behavior as a cadet?
~ As I stated before would the AF keep an E3 under the same circumstances? If not, than why do you think you should get different treatment as a cadet?
~~ An E3 is ADAF, working on the line getting the mission accomplished. The cadet is not ADAF and they can backfill with ROTC and OCS at a lower cost...again can we spell sequestration?

yes, I expect more from the honor code, because ....silly me, my DH and DS, took the idea of breaking the law for anything the same as violating the honor code. They ddin't parse the definition into...you are not violating the code if you broke the law, you only violated it if you lied about breaking the law!

What exactly is USAFA telling cadets if they believe that is acceptable for officers?
~ To me it is saying what I said to my kids when they were teens. Lie to me, but don't let me catch you in the lie?
 
A late afternoon thought...

A careful reading of these responses would reveal that many of these posters are defending positions that are not being contested. Quick assumptions are causing the authors to spin their posts supporting their personal position but fail to address the actual comments of those they believe they are in disagreement with.

Way too many electrons being burned up here. Let the AFA investigate and handle the resolution. Nothing said here will change that anyway.
 
Back
Top