Naturalized Foreigner

rkv said:
Just curious did you mean to indicate that your baccalauréat results qualified you for CPGE? How did you do on the bac?

I suspect that enlisting in the USAF, might be the riskiest way for you to proceed. The USAFA website seems to be in agreement with your understanding that you could participate in ROTC but not receive a scholarship. https://www.afrotc.com/program-requirements
ROTC might be the easiest path for you.

Also, it is possible for international students to apply to the USAFA. Although, your nomination would need to be made by the French government. Have you researched this, particularly the French government nomination? http://www.academyadmissions.com/admissions/advice-to-applicants/international-students/

Good luck.
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Yes I was in the CPGE (I'm suprised that you know whats it is :), typically french...). Admissions are based on your file evaluation, not your baccalaureate results

Thank you for the advice, it seems that ROTC should be most reasonable but I don't exactly conceptualize what it is.
I think that it is courses you take alongside your college courses, am I right ?

For the International Status, I asked US embassies around me but it seems that you first have to be selected in the French AFA first.
 
Spud said:
You can only enter a service academy in one of two ways: as a US citizen or a French citizen. If as a US citizen then you must be a legal US citizen (having renounced your French citizenship) by Induction Day (I-Day) when you report to the Academy after an appointment. The path to citizenship is well laid out by the US government and you can look up how to do that. If as a French citizen, then you must go through the French government and follow the above link's instruction. If the French government wants you to go, France pays for your tuition and training and at the end of your 4 years you will receive a USAFA diploma but will not be commissioned in the US military. You will probably be commissioned in the French military, although that is up to France. ROTC will require the same---by commissioning date you must be a US citizen, and to even receive a ROTC scholarship you must be a US citizen although you may participate in ROTC in a non-scholarship status. I think you are getting all the paths jumbled together and assuming somewhere along the road you get citizenship just for trying but it doesn't work that way. You must pick one path or the other.
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Okay so USAFA and Fr SA seems to be practically impossible... I should investigate more on the ROTC program then
 
For AFROTC as stated earlier you would need to be contracted by the beginning of your junior year at the latest. To contract you would have to show that you are a citizen.
~ I would assume for you it would be your junior year because the ones that contract freshmen or sophomore year are scholarship recipients, which puts you out of the running right off the bat since you are not a citizen.

As others have stated check out the ROTC forums. It is not an easy path to get to not only officer but specifically pilot,. There will be many hurdles and a biggie for them is your major. 85% are STEM (technical).
~ Search SFT/EA and Rated board threads.

As for how it works as a ROTC cadet. You will be a FT college student and attend ROTC classes(LLAB)/PT 2x a week. They will also assign you a job within the ROTC unit, so it can be a lot more hours outside the classroom.
~ IE you could be a cadet flight commander. That means you will write reports regarding the cadets within your flight plus attend unit meetings on top of PT/LLAB.
 
You do not need to surrender your French citizenship at I Day. My daughter has dual citizen and has been told that she might be asked by commissioning day. It's not automatic. You do have to surrender your French passport. You also swear allegiance to the US so you wouldn't be able to serve in the French military. You could retain your citizenship though.
 
His issue is not dual citizenship. He has no American citizenship which makes him ineligible

The oath of office is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States and that he will bear true faith and allegiance to the same...

That is different than swearing allegiance to the United States. It sounds like nit picking but if more people especially elected people realized what that sacred oath really meant, it would clear up a lot of internal issues.
 
Cerberi said:
His issue is not dual citizenship. He has no American citizenship which makes him ineligible

The oath of office is to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States and that he will bear true faith and allegiance to the same...

That is different than swearing allegiance to the United States. It sounds like nit picking but if more people especially elected people realized what that sacred oath really meant, it would clear up a lot of internal issues.
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I understand that he currently does not have one but I told him above the timing for naturalization applications. Once he is naturalized then he'd be a dual citizen. At that point he needs to decide which country has his allegiance.

The naturalization oath requires you to protect and defend the constitution of the United States, to bear arms if so requires. In fact it's very similar to the oath the cadets take.

As far as I'm concerned I can only give him the facts. There was a comment that said that he needed to surrender his French citizenship on I Day and I answered that comment. In the end, none of us can make the final decision if he thinks of himself as an American or a French national.
 
Wolf57 said:
For the International Status, I asked US embassies around me but it seems that you first have to be selected in the French AFA first.
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I'm surprised to hear that you would need to be enrolled at L'Ecole de L'Air. I believe there are two different programs one is an exchange program where L'Ecole de L'Air and USAFA cadets can spend a semester at the other country's SA. I believe that is different than the international student application where you would complete all four years at the USAFA.

In speaking with the U.S. Embassy did you contact the Office of the Defense Attaché? If not, I would recommend speaking with them and trying to clarify the situation. Our first hand experience has been that it is often difficult to get the correct information regarding the SAs while overseas. However, in our case speaking to the Defense Attaché did the trick.

I thought most applicants to L'Ecole de L'Air or Saint-Cyr would typically have completed university or at least CPGE prior to enrolling at a French SA. If so, it wouldn't seem to make sense that a student would than start a four year Bachelors program in the U.S.. Thus my suspicion that your saying they need to be "in the French AFA", is more likely for the annual exchange program and not the international students pathway.

Also, with respect to naturalization, do you already have some basis for becoming a naturalized citizen, or were you relying on enlistment? If the later, then attending a four year university in the U.S. and participating in ROTC might not work out for you. I think you would need to speak to an immigration lawyer, but unless you already have some status in the U.S., e.g., a green card or parent living in the U.S., I would think that it would be difficult to become a citizen in time for you to then use ROTC at a U.S. university as your pathway to being a USAF pilot.

While I initially indicated that enlisting would be a difficult or at least risky in terms of likelihood of being able to progress from an enlisted airman to a USAFA cadet, it might be the only fast path to citizenship. In terms of enlisting, were you planning on relying on the MAVNI program? If so, your chances of being selected would depend on which strategic languages you have. It appears that for French they are only focusing on French speaking African nationals. Although, if you passed the Bac in one of the languages which the U.S. Defense Departments considers to be strategic, you probably would have sufficient fluency to qualify. Also, while the military are authorized to bring in a few thousand people this way, the Air Force does not seem to be using it heavily. I suspect most of the slots are being used by the Army. You can read more about these enlisted paths to citizenship at these links:
http://www.afsoc.af.mil/Units/AirForceSpecialOperationsAirWarfareCenter/USAFSOS/MAVNI.aspx
http://www.defense.gov/news/mavni-fact-sheet.pdf
https://www.uscis.gov/news/fact-sheets/naturalization-through-military-service-fact-sheet

My suspicion is that there is no easy or high probability path of success for you to gain entry to the USAFA. However, if you are happy with the experiences that one of the paths will provide you even if you do not gain entry to the USAFA or some other path to being a USAF pilot, then certainly do try and good luck in your efforts.
 
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rkv said:
I would think that it would be difficult to become a citizen in time for you to then use ROTC at a U.S. university as your pathway to being a USAF pilot.
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Thinking about it, rkv may have a point, but from a different perspective. I would think you would be considered an international student regarding admittance to any U.S. college. Many state colleges will have a quota for out of state (OOS) and international students regarding admittance.
~ I.E. I know for Virginia, NC and MD, by state law they can only top out at a specific percentage of OOS students, which I believe includes the International students too. Could be wrong on that aspect of being included in the OOS, but for VA, colleges like UVA, VTech, JMU, GMU, VCU must have no less than 75% from In State. I believe MD and NC are the exact same regarding %.

What that means to you as a foreign student is you better do well on the TOEFL if you want to go to a nationally recognized state college in those states, or otherwise start looking at private colleges.
~ I would suggest if you are serious about doing AFROTC and college you not only need to research the the ROTC threads, but also a site like collegeconfidential.com regarding admission as an international student.

Before you can join AFROTC, you need to be accepted to any college stateside as an international student since you will not have a green card.

Step 2. Before you apply to those schools research their AFROTC program. Not every college is what is called a host unit.
~ IOWS, you may have to travel up to an hour to attend AFROTC at a different university because they do not offer AFROTC at your college.
~~ IE George Mason University(GMU) in VA does not offer AFROTC, those cadets travel to University of Maryland in College Park because UMDCP is the host unit for GMU.

I would not say that going to USAFA is out of the question, nor serving in the USAF, but I will say you need to do some deep searching on how you will obtain this path.

I am also in the camp of many never wing, be it medically or other things.
~You will take a DoDMERB exam as a cadet, but that is not the end of it. You will have to pass a much higher level exam known as the FAA FC1A to be a pilot. Research that too before you jump down this rabbit hole. Pass the DoDMERB only equates to the fact you can serve. To fly you need the FAA medical clearance.
~~ AFROTC cadets are sent to Wright Pat for 3 days as a rising senior in college (AS400). It includes everything from eyes to dental to hearing to EKGs.

I wonder why you also don't think about going through your country and if flying is your passion, apply for ENJJPT for pilot training? To me that appears to be the easiest path, unless you really desire to be an American citizen. Don't confuse that with being a USAF officer. You will be an officer 1st, 2nd and last. Your job will be whatever the AF decides.
~ Service before Self is a cliche, but it is true.

There has never been a 100% winging class to my knowledge out of UPT in the past decade, nor 1 90, or 80, maybe 75% on an insanely good day, but I bet my kids that 100% of the students that entered believed they would wing a year later from when they showed up for UPT.
~ Yet, those that go USAFA or AFROTC will owe 4-5 yrs of their life...ask yourself how happy would you be if you bust UPT and now are the Accounting and Finance Officer?

Plus, there is always the chance of getting RPAs out of UPT. Are you ready for that?
~ SERVICE BEFORE SELF
 
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Since France is not a NATO country, applying to Euro NATO Joint Jet Pilot training is not an option for him. Member NATO countries that participate in ENJJPT are Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Italy, The Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Turkey, United Kingdom, and the United States. I assume that France has its own version of UPT.
 
rkv said:
I'm surprised to hear that you would need to be enrolled at L'Ecole de L'Air. I believe there are two different programs one is an exchange program where L'Ecole de L'Air and USAFA cadets can spend a semester at the other country's SA. I believe that is different than the international student application where you would complete all four years at the USAFA.

In speaking with the U.S. Embassy did you contact the Office of the Defense Attaché? If not, I would recommend speaking with them and trying to clarify the situation. Our first hand experience has been that it is often difficult to get the correct information regarding the SAs while overseas. However, in our case speaking to the Defense Attaché did the trick.

Also, with respect to naturalization, do you already have some basis for becoming a naturalized citizen, or were you relying on enlistment? If the later, then attending a four year university in the U.S. and participating in ROTC might not work out for you. I think you would need to speak to an immigration lawyer, but unless you already have some status in the U.S., e.g., a green card or parent living in the U.S., I would think that it would be difficult to become a citizen in time for you to then use ROTC at a U.S. university as your pathway to being a USAF pilot.

While I initially indicated that enlisting would be a difficult or at least risky in terms of likelihood of being able to progress from an enlisted airman to a USAFA cadet, it might be the only fast path to citizenship. In terms of enlisting, were you planning on relying on the MAVNI program? If so, your chances of being selected would depend on which strategic languages you have. It appears that for French they are only focusing on French speaking African nationals. Although, if you passed the Bac in one of the languages which the U.S. Defense Departments considers to be strategic, you probably would have sufficient fluency to qualify. Also, while the military are authorized to bring in a few thousand people this way, the Air Force does not seem to be using it heavily. I suspect most of the slots are being used by the Army. You can read more about these enlisted paths to citizenship at these links:
http://www.afsoc.af.mil/Units/AirForceSpecialOperationsAirWarfareCenter/USAFSOS/MAVNI.aspx
http://www.defense.gov/news/mavni-fact-sheet.pdf
https://www.uscis.gov/news/fact-sheets/naturalization-through-military-service-fact-sheet

My suspicion is that there is no easy or high probability path of success for you to gain entry to the USAFA. However, if you are happy with the experiences that one of the paths will provide you even if you do not gain entry to the USAFA or some other path to being a USAF pilot, then certainly do try and good luck in your efforts.
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I tried few months ago to contact the Office of Defense Attaché of the Srassbourg US embassy (near my hometown) but they didn't answer me at all... I'll try again and keep you updated if an International Student Application is possible.

rkv said:
I thought most applicants to L'Ecole de L'Air or Saint-Cyr would typically have completed university or at least CPGE prior to enrolling at a French SA. If so, it wouldn't seem to make sense that a student would than start a four year Bachelors program in the U.S.. Thus my suspicion that your saying they need to be "in the French AFA", is more likely for the annual exchange program and not the international students pathway.
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You are right, to attend the Ecole de l'Air (=USAFA) or Saint-Cyr (=USMA), you first have to complete two years of CPGE.

But there is another way to attend the Ecole de l'Air. I think you call that UPT, or ENJJP in the USA. It's called EOPN : you just need a high school diploma, it is a selection based on different criterias to become a pilot in the Frenc AF. Once selected, you learn to flight (and become a warrant officer) at the Ecole de l'Air.
I'm going to apply for the Ecole de l'Air through those tests in approximately 3 months.

rkv said:
Also, with respect to naturalization, do you already have some basis for becoming a naturalized citizen, or were you relying on enlistment? If the later, then attending a four year university in the U.S. and participating in ROTC might not work out for you. I think you would need to speak to an immigration lawyer, but unless you already have some status in the U.S., e.g., a green card or parent living in the U.S., I would think that it would be difficult to become a citizen in time for you to then use ROTC at a U.S. university as your pathway to being a USAF pilot.
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Unfortunately, no I don't. I'm only making hypothesis
And the MAVNI program is for African natives who speak French... Not my case
 
Pima said:
Thinking about it, rkv may have a point, but from a different perspective. I would think you would be considered an international student regarding admittance to any U.S. college. Many state colleges will have a quota for out of state (OOS) and international students regarding admittance.
~ I.E. I know for Virginia, NC and MD, by state law they can only top out at a specific percentage of OOS students, which I believe includes the International students too. Could be wrong on that aspect of being included in the OOS, but for VA, colleges like UVA, VTech, JMU, GMU, VCU must have no less than 75% from In State. I believe MD and NC are the exact same regarding %.

What that means to you as a foreign student is you better do well on the TOEFL if you want to go to a nationally recognized state college in those states, or otherwise start looking at private colleges.
~ I would suggest if you are serious about doing AFROTC and college you not only need to research the the ROTC threads, but also a site like collegeconfidential.com regarding admission as an international student.
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Okay so I'll take TOEFL and SAT. See my results, then start seeking for good colleges in the USA. But the fact is that I've already begun college in France, so I would try to apply for "sophomore year" (the second year?). But if I study in the USA from the sophomore year, I could not be able to attend ROTC. Am I Right ?


Pima said:
I wonder why you also don't think about going through your country and if flying is your passion, apply for ENJJPT for pilot training? To me that appears to be the easiest path, unless you really desire to be an American citizen. Don't confuse that with being a USAF officer. You will be an officer 1st, 2nd and last. Your job will be whatever the AF decides.
~ Service before Self is a cliche, but it is true.
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Actually, the medical requirements to be pilot are more accessible in the USA than in France ( I've made some researches on it)
As I just said to Rkv, I will attempt "UPT" (or ENJJPT) in France first of all. You're right, it's the easiest path even if it's a really hard one :muscles2:

Pima said:
Plus, there is always the chance of getting RPAs out of UPT. Are you ready for that?
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RPAs ? Why not ? It's the future of aeronautics :shake:

Thank you for your time
 
Wolf57 said:
I tried few months ago to contact the Office of Defense Attaché of the Srassbourg US embassy (near my hometown) but they didn't answer me at all... I'll try again and keep you updated if an International Student Application is possible.



You are right, to attend the Ecole de l'Air (=USAFA) or Saint-Cyr (=USMA), you first have to complete two years of CPGE.

But there is another way to attend the Ecole de l'Air. I think you call that UPT, or ENJJP in the USA. It's called EOPN : you just need a high school diploma, it is a selection based on different criterias to become a pilot in the Frenc AF. Once selected, you learn to flight (and become a warrant officer) at the Ecole de l'Air.
I'm going to apply for the Ecole de l'Air through those tests in approximately 3 months.



Unfortunately, no I don't. I'm only making hypothesis
And the MAVNI program is for African natives who speak French... Not my case
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I think that you should research this before researching USAFA and/or AROTC. When you said that you were considering naturalization, I assumed that you were a legal permanent resident.

To become a citizen you need to be a legal permanent resident for three or five years. You can obtain residency through marriage, children or parents or through labor cases. There are ways to get the residency and expedited citizenship through the military, but you need to a) enlist and b) be deployed outside of the US (this only applies for the expedite citizenship and not residency). Even with the expedited military route you are looking at about 2 years of active duty, even longer once you add the administrative delays.
 
afmom2020 said:
I think that you should research this before researching USAFA and/or AROTC. When you said that you were considering naturalization, I assumed that you were a legal permanent resident.

To become a citizen you need to be a legal permanent resident for three or five years. You can obtain residency through marriage, children or parents or through labor cases. There are ways to get the residency and expedited citizenship through the military, but you need to a) enlist and b) be deployed outside of the US (this only applies for the expedite citizenship and not residency). Even with the expedited military route you are looking at about 2 years of active duty, even longer once you add the administrative delays.
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Like Cerberi said, it is "a battle against both the clock and the process"...
 
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