USMA then jets

Definition of "might": used to show possibility.
..Not certainty.

"Sure there are PLENTY of ifs to becoming a pilot...or ANYTHING else anyone wants to do. Anyone that doesn't realize this...well...I feel sorry for them. But that doesn't mean that you can't strive for that KNOWING that your chances are slim. Like we've said before...it's something to keep our heads up in that place. So the point is not that "you might not get the pilot slot," but rather that "you might." -me

"I disagree. The point is, once you've built up in your mind, for a lifetime, that you will (will=certainty, I never spoke with certainty) be a pilot, and you're competing for 100 other people who have built up in their life times that the only thing they will be (again) are pilots, are you going to be ok with the next thing? If you're looking at USNA, and all you want to do is fly F/A-18s, will you be ok flying a helo? What if you don't even get a helo, and instead have to drive a frigate around, would you be ok with that. (Never EVEN applied to Navy knowing that I wouldn't like doing any of those things IF I didn't receive the F-18 slot)

Hope for the best, plan for the worst. (is this not a different way of saying "'don't think that you might not get the pilot slot', but rather that you 'might'"? :confused:) This doesn't only apply to selecting academies, branches within a service...it applies to any long term plans you may have ("...or ANYTHING else anyone wants to do..." Is that not the same?). You don't want to be the guy sitting there on billet night after you just found out where you're going thinking "oh no, what have I gotten myself into......5 years of THIS"." -LITS

I don't know, LITS, those two look complimentary to each other...
 
Well then anything might happen, so plan for nothing...

And no they are not the same...but before we all pull out the high school vocab books and analyze every word, you will hopefully learn soon enough the difference of the two.
 
Well then anything might happen, so plan for nothing...

Now you're getting there.
If anything can happen, If a cadet really has no choice regarding his future (like you make it out to be)- what does an AFA Doolie strive for to make it through BCT and the rest of the time there? Enlighten us.
 
[redacted]

That response was the summary of what YOU are saying.

Flip a coin. That is the chance you have to even have a flight school billet at AFA. Now, cut down that some more, that's the chance you have of becoming a pilot. Cut that down much more, that's the chance you have in becoming a fighter pilot. You may have F-22s all over your room and on your desk top background. Do YOU have a back up plan if you aren't a pilot? If, you, like a majority of your AFA classmates don't get a fighter pilot spot, or aviation at all.....



what are you going to do?





It's amazing, across the U.S. each branch gets the same kinds of things....


"I'm going to be a SEAL. I'm going to be a fighter pilot. I'm going to be a helo pilot. I'm going to be a Green Beret."


Ok, try for those things, but what if you're an EOIT on a cruiser wiping up oil in the engine room? What if you're babysitting missiles in the desert, just waiting to push a button and looking through endless paperwork? What if you are inspecting cargo holds on big smelly ships? What if you're MI, sitting back at the post looking through endless piles of intel and giving the guys on the ground to work with?


If you aren't a pilot unitedstatesAFA2013....what are you going to be?
 
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[redacted]

That response was the summary of what YOU are saying.

Flip a coin. That is the chance you have to even have a flight school billet at AFA. Now, cut down that some more, that's the chance you have of becoming a pilot. Cut that down much more, that's the chance you have in becoming a fighter pilot. You may have F-22s all over your room and on your desk top background. Do YOU have a back up plan if you aren't a pilot? If, you, like a majority of your AFA classmates don't get a fighter pilot spot, or aviation at all.....



what are you going to do?





It's amazing, across the U.S. each branch gets the same kinds of things....


"I'm going to be a SEAL. I'm going to be a fighter pilot. I'm going to be a helo pilot. I'm going to be a Green Beret."


Ok, try for those things, but what if you're an EOIT on a cruiser wiping up oil in the engine room? What if you're babysitting missiles in the desert, just waiting to push a button and looking through endless paperwork? What if you are inspecting cargo holds on big smelly ships? What if you're MI, sitting back at the post looking through endless piles of intel and giving the guys on the ground to work with?


If you aren't a pilot unitedstatesAFA2013....what are you going to be?

See CristCorp's last post for your answer. I have a major in mind that can back me up if I can't get that slot, and decide on pursuing medical school. And if medical school fails, I'll pursue other things I have in mind. That's not the point though. The point is that for me, regardless of what I will end up doing, getting a shot (however minimal it may be) at becoming a fighter pilot is what will drive me through those academy years.

For the rest, this is where the person makes sure that of all the academies, branches, and majors: they choose the one they want.
 
Please read my posts again. I state over and over again it is great to have the dream, but have a back up.

I never said you won't get it, I said what if you don't, and gave examples of how this might occur, than what will you do? If you are only going to the AFA to become a pilot, than I am sorry, I don't and won't ever agree. The AFA is an amazing opportunity to become an officer. When you graduate you will be a commissioned officer with commitment and an assignment, but not necessarily for UPT, and even then with no guarantee you will graduate UPT.


I find this conversation ironical, because I am pretty positive the majority of candidates and cadets also applied for ROTC. Why? They wanted a back up plan.

That is all I keep stating have that dream go for it, but also have a dose of realism. The realism is the SA's are great leadership building combined with a Ivy league education, but attending the SA does not mean in 6 yrs from I-day you will be in a cockpit of any kind. If that is all you are using the SA to obtain than re-think it. What do they call a Lt. Pilot at UPT...Lt! Nobody calls them as Pilot SO and SO, there is no pilot rank on your shoulder boards.

Perhaps it is the, in my perception, overly pessimistic 'Chicken Little' tone of these posters with which I have the most problems.

It isn't Chicken Little that you are reading, it is FACTS OF LIFE. Should these pessimistic posters just ignore the realities of the chances, or should we tell them the truth of the chances? Should we just sit there and say OH YEAH b/c you are an SA grad you will get to be a pilot at least and probably Fighters? It doesn't work that way, and it is irresponsible not to give every fact if they are thinking that the AFA is going to guarantee them 100% that they will not only get UPT, but a Fighter. I prefer that all facts are on the table, including the good, the bad, and the ugly instead of being an Ostrich when it comes to something that might not be the best news.

Lastly, unitedstatesafa2013 there is one great voice here that will be able to assist you in the med school back up plan from the AFA... he can give you the stats since it has been his dream for the past several yrs. Actually, Bullet was the one that connected him with a Flight Surgeon over a yr ago to find out exactly his course of action. That is the beauty of this site, many posters can assist in changing the dream into a reality.

Chicken Little signing off:shake:
 
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It's ok Pima, in no time he'll figure out what people who have been there and done that are talking about. It should become pretty clear than, as it does for many people.
 
Alright LITS, I think everyone is arguing the same thing now...

Pima, I think flight surgery would be a great career to pursue as a backup.
 
It's ok Pima, in no time he'll figure out what people who have been there and done that are talking about. It should become pretty clear than, as it does for many people.

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Not to take the thread too far off topic, but it's a pretty small group, like probably less than 10 people in the Air Force. Most are pilots who fulfill their original commitment then go to medical school then come back to the Air Force. Their career progression is a bit weird in which assignments they take when, but the one I have met seemed quite happy.
 
Is it possible to do it inversely, and instead of fulfilling the commitment before, go to medical school with that 3% of the class right after graduation, become a flight surgeon after medical school, then go to pilot school soon after? Seems like too much of a long shot, plus they have cut-off ages to becoming a pilot. One is hard enough without the other anyway.
 
AFA, the 3 examples I knew of all went to pilot training first, then med school. The way they explained it to me was the AF is more willing to release a pilot from their flying commitment for a few years than to release a doc from their medical commitment.

But it doesn't hurt to ask the question when you get there! Good luck!
 
I think we have a bunch of people looking at the glass as half empty or half full. This is one of those rare times where it's not a pessimistic or optimistic view point whichever way you look at it. Personally; I never see the glass as HALF FULL or HALF EMPTY. I see the water as JUST RIGHT. They just happen to have the WRONG SIZE GLASS.

Oldgrad; you continue to say that there are a lot of negative attitudes in some of the posters. I assume myself included. And that we are very discouraging. I totally disagree. Maybe you see the negative in everyone unless it's your opinion, and therefor you see discouragement. No one here is discouraging anyone from having dreams, goals, shooting for the stars, etc... They're simply stating that in the real world, you CAN'T use certain finite descriptors and have a finite attitude. I.e. To say you WILL do such and such for a career, education, assignment, etc... is not realistic or practical. It's practical to aim for your goals, but a realistic person will have a backup to their plans.

I guess there are some people in the world that believe "If you WANT bad enough, you'll get it". There's no truth in that, but that attitude would be difficult to have a backup plan with. That's like an ultra conservative religious person who believes "If I pray hard enough, God will help me....... But if not, I'll do this as a backup". Obviously, that is a contradiction in belief. So, if you're the type of person who believes that the only attitude to have is to "Want it, and not to consider the WHAT IFs"; then by all means, go for it. For the rest of those who have goals, remember what the goal is. Goals are individual. I know some people who's goal was simply to SERVE THEIR COUNTRY IN THE MILITARY. They didn't care if it was via the academy, ROTC, OTS, or enlisted. They WANTED "XYZ" type of job; but if they didn't get it, so what. They didn't care if they wound up a supply officer or an enlisted cook. If they could serve their country, they achieved their goal. Then again; I've seen people who's goal was to come to the Air Force Academy and play football. And when that didn't work out, they left the academy. Then there were those who's goal was to go to the Academy and Fly jets. For some, that didn't work out, and they were very discouraged afterwards.

The military; any branch; is not like a civilian occupation. If all you want to do is to fly, you don't need the Air Force or other branch of the military to do that. Most people choose this route because they don't want to spend so much money doing it on their own. But they can get great jobs for the airlines, corporate jets, private charter, and a number of others. I have to say again, don't let the academy be your goal. Let it be a tool for reaching your goal. Once you have that out of the way, consider your short term and long term goals. Hopefully serving your country is one of those goals. If you want to be a pilot or doctor; hopefully serving your country is one of your LONG TERM goals, because you're going to be there for 14+ years.

There is nothing negative or discouraging with making sure individuals have thought out what they are doing; why they are doing it; and what happens if things don't go as planned. Some may consider this a pessimistic viewpoint. Some might consider it a well thought out approach. Just like another topic was mentioning WHY a person wanted to join the military and/or attend the academy. Questioning WHY is not a negative attitude, nor is it discouraging. Asking questions such a why, is a means of requesting "Self Reflection". So a person can look inside themselves and determine the answer to why. Then they can determine if the ends will justify the means and goals. Whether it's; "Why do you want to buy that car?" to "Why do you want to go to the academy". The person's answer isn't important to US. It never is. It's important to the person it was directed to so they can look inside themselves to determine what THEY choose is right for them. And it allows the rest on the forum to have a better understanding of the person when comments are being exchanged. After all, this is a forum where the vast majority of comments start with a QUESTION. If a person wasn't interested in other people's position on a topic and/or their experiences, then they probably shouldn't be visiting and asking questions. But that isn't what most people who visit here have for a motive. Most truly do want to ask questions and have different people's perspectives on the topics. Especially from those who have some experience with what they are asking.
 
For anyone interested in a career as a flight surgeon, there is a book to read entitled "The Birds Were Silver Then" by Dr. Lowell Peterson. Dr. Peterson was the flight surgeon for the 12th TAC fighter squadron in Vietnam from 1963 to 1966. Even though the book is a bit dated, it really shows the type of relationship that a flight surgeon has with the pilots he is responsible for in the squadron. The book is actually a collection of short stories about the docs adventures with the F-105 pilots. I really enjoyed it.

Stealth_81
 
I think we have a bunch of people looking at the glass as half empty or half full. This is one of those rare times where it's not a pessimistic or optimistic view point whichever way you look at it. Personally; I never see the glass as HALF FULL or HALF EMPTY. I see the water as JUST RIGHT. They just happen to have the WRONG SIZE GLASS.

Oldgrad; you continue to say that there are a lot of negative attitudes in some of the posters. I assume myself included. And that we are very discouraging. I totally disagree. Maybe you see the negative in everyone unless it's your opinion, and therefor you see discouragement. No one here is discouraging anyone from having dreams, goals, shooting for the stars, etc... They're simply stating that in the real world, you CAN'T use certain finite descriptors and have a finite attitude. I.e. To say you WILL do such and such for a career, education, assignment, etc... is not realistic or practical. It's practical to aim for your goals, but a realistic person will have a backup to their plans.

I guess there are some people in the world that believe "If you WANT bad enough, you'll get it". There's no truth in that, but that attitude would be difficult to have a backup plan with. That's like an ultra conservative religious person who believes "If I pray hard enough, God will help me....... But if not, I'll do this as a backup". Obviously, that is a contradiction in belief. So, if you're the type of person who believes that the only attitude to have is to "Want it, and not to consider the WHAT IFs"; then by all means, go for it. For the rest of those who have goals, remember what the goal is. Goals are individual. I know some people who's goal was simply to SERVE THEIR COUNTRY IN THE MILITARY. They didn't care if it was via the academy, ROTC, OTS, or enlisted. They WANTED "XYZ" type of job; but if they didn't get it, so what. They didn't care if they wound up a supply officer or an enlisted cook. If they could serve their country, they achieved their goal. Then again; I've seen people who's goal was to come to the Air Force Academy and play football. And when that didn't work out, they left the academy. Then there were those who's goal was to go to the Academy and Fly jets. For some, that didn't work out, and they were very discouraged afterwards.

The military; any branch; is not like a civilian occupation. If all you want to do is to fly, you don't need the Air Force or other branch of the military to do that. Most people choose this route because they don't want to spend so much money doing it on their own. But they can get great jobs for the airlines, corporate jets, private charter, and a number of others. I have to say again, don't let the academy be your goal. Let it be a tool for reaching your goal. Once you have that out of the way, consider your short term and long term goals. Hopefully serving your country is one of those goals. If you want to be a pilot or doctor; hopefully serving your country is one of your LONG TERM goals, because you're going to be there for 14+ years.

There is nothing negative or discouraging with making sure individuals have thought out what they are doing; why they are doing it; and what happens if things don't go as planned. Some may consider this a pessimistic viewpoint. Some might consider it a well thought out approach. Just like another topic was mentioning WHY a person wanted to join the military and/or attend the academy. Questioning WHY is not a negative attitude, nor is it discouraging. Asking questions such a why, is a means of requesting "Self Reflection". So a person can look inside themselves and determine the answer to why. Then they can determine if the ends will justify the means and goals. Whether it's; "Why do you want to buy that car?" to "Why do you want to go to the academy". The person's answer isn't important to US. It never is. It's important to the person it was directed to so they can look inside themselves to determine what THEY choose is right for them. And it allows the rest on the forum to have a better understanding of the person when comments are being exchanged. After all, this is a forum where the vast majority of comments start with a QUESTION. If a person wasn't interested in other people's position on a topic and/or their experiences, then they probably shouldn't be visiting and asking questions. But that isn't what most people who visit here have for a motive. Most truly do want to ask questions and have different people's perspectives on the topics. Especially from those who have some experience with what they are asking.


Well said.
 
Oldgrad, what exactly did you do for the Navy?


It's ok Pima, in no time he'll figure out what people who have been there and done that are talking about. It should become pretty clear than, as it does for many people.

LITS, I have no idea where you and Pima have ‘been’ and what you have ‘done’ that bears any relevance whatsoever on this discussion or what I have done that does the same so I see this simply as an attempt to draw the thread off topic and into a personal ‘flame’ war. I will not participate..


Even IF you make it in, a flight school billet isn't always in your deck. The Coast Guard has the HIGHEST PERCENTAGE (and percentage is the key word there) of flying billets for a sea going service, and I'll tell you, that's not a whole lot. We had about 205 people graduate in my class from the Academy, and I believe 10 or 12 of them went straight to flight school.

This is an example of the negativism to which I am speaking. Mixing apples and oranges, resulting in pig slop. From it, one could be led to believe that the CG, with only 5% going aviation, is the best choice for aviation in the sea-going service. Not true. Around 30% of USNA grads are selected for aviation. So, how does the CG obtain its aviators. First off, they require the majority of officers to serve a couple of years on a cutter before being accepted at flight school. Those extra few years mean that once those selectees are winged, they are closer to retirement and will be more likely to do so. Also, the CG depends heavily on inter-service transfers for aviators. I don’t know the exact percentages but it used to be about half and, running the numbers now, apparently it is close to the same. AF, Navy, and Army pilots who usually cannot handle the rigors of deployment but enjoy the mission, transfer to the CG where they can continue to fly but have a more agreeable home life. They too will remain until retirement, again decreasing the turnover rate somewhat.

[redacted]Flip a coin. That is the chance you have to even have a flight school billet at AFA. Now, cut down that some more, that's the chance you have of becoming a pilot. Cut that down much more, that's the chance you have in becoming a fighter pilot. You may have F-22s all over your room and on your desk top background. Do YOU have a back up plan if you aren't a pilot? If, you, like a majority of your AFA classmates don't get a fighter pilot spot, or aviation at all.....

Another example of the negativism to which I have referred. “Flip a coin”. Fifty percent, correct? Two major fallacies here. First off, over half of each graduating AFA class is selected for aviation. But that is only half the percentage formula. How many wanted it? No idea. Secondly, selection choice is dependent upon some form of class standing. For a “flip a coin” attitude, one would have to assume that they have absolutely no control over their class standing. Not true at all.

So, to this lopsided coin, we add the fact that from what I read recently in an Aviation Weekly that with the new T-6 trainer, 97% of primary students make it through successfully. Quite a more positive picture than a 25% double coin flip, huh? And primary training is historically where most fail.

Now for the third fallacy, we can throw in another false negativism:

Only the top 10% of grads get Fighters, and I am sure that number will decrease.

Again, a percentage formula requires two inputs. We know the top number but how many truly attempted to be in the top few because they were driven to fly jets? No idea.

Several other basic concept of human nature applies here. The aviation pipeline is somewhat self-selecting. Many will decide either through familiarization flights or the battery of tests that aviation is not for them and go elsewhere to seek a career. Additionally, after primary there are those who find that they enjoy flying but not necessarily upside down pulling 5Gs and opt for helos, heavies, or patrol planes. Others realistically realize that they don’t have the mettle to be fighter pilots and opt out voluntarily. Others dream of these platforms initially. Bottom line, the 10% means nothing if we don’t know how many really tried for fighters.

This brings up another concept of human nature. If one does not want fighters, will he work as hard for a top 10% grade as one who does or will he do the gentlemanly thing and step aside and allow those for whom it means a great deal, fight it out?

Bottom line, LITS, where can I get one of your lopsided coins? I might make a little money gambling with it against a few unsuspecting Coasties.
 
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