Trump removes JCS and DNI from National Security Council

LOL @ this whole mess. If you voted for Trump I hope you feel rightfully shamed at what you supported.
 
scoutpilot said:
LOL @ this whole mess.
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=schadenfreude

Gen. Thomas feels no schadenfreude:

At a military conference Tuesday, Gen. Tony Thomas, head of the military's Special Operations Command, expressed concerns about the government's state of "turmoil." "Our government continues to be in unbelievable turmoil," Thomas said. "I hope they sort it out soon because we're a nation at war." When asked about his remarks later, Thomas told The New York Times, "As a commander, I'm concerned our government be as stable as possible."
 
cb7893 said:
=schadenfreude

Gen. Thomas feels no schadenfreude:

At a military conference Tuesday, Gen. Tony Thomas, head of the military's Special Operations Command, expressed concerns about the government's state of "turmoil." "Our government continues to be in unbelievable turmoil," Thomas said. "I hope they sort it out soon because we're a nation at war." When asked about his remarks later, Thomas told The New York Times, "As a commander, I'm concerned our government be as stable as possible."
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Oh I'm chuckling. I've had to live amidst the ardent, blinded, screw-em-if-they-ain't-me mentality that elected Trump. I'm enjoying their mental gymnastics as they try to explain how this isn't obviously a slow-motion shipwreck. When people won't listen to facts and reason, we get this. "Alternative facts" and Russian corruption of our government and electoral process.
 
Interestingly enough, I live in a screw-em-if-they-ain't-me area that voted for Hillary Clinton.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Interestingly enough, I live in a screw-em-if-they-ain't-me area that voted for Hillary Clinton.
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What does any of this have to do with Hillary Clinton voters?

Trump won the election. He's now our President and is governing in ways that seem dangerous to lots and lots of people -- including prominent members of his own party and generals and so on. Are you actually trotting out tired partisan rhetoric in response to this?

And if your response is that you're just mimicking Scout's language -- his post was a direct response to the charge of schadenfreude. Whether you believe Clinton voters to be "screw-em-if-they-ain't-me" types is irrelevant as long as they aren't trying to defend away the destabilizing actions of this administration.

The topic is our actual current government and its actual behavior.
 
I believe all voters to be the same. Both sides are suffering from "screw-em-all" disease.

You should also remember that Democrats are still a part of this government.
 
LineInTheSand said:
I believe all voters to be the same. Both sides are suffering from "screw-em-all" disease.

You should also remember that Democrats are still a part of this government.
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Absolutely, Democrats are part of the government structure. Who's denying that? However, Democrats aren't connected to the topic at hand, which is the Trump administration's strangely close relationship with Russia, the resignation of Flynn less than a month into his role, and the resulting grab-bag of concerns. Concerns that are cutting across partisan lines.

It seems like you're trying to take something that's getting less partisan by the day (McCain, Graham, Blunt) and reinterpret it as partisan in order to be dismissive. That doesn't seem very intellectually rigorous or honest.
 
New Kid said:
Absolutely, Democrats are part of the government structure. Who's denying that? However, Democrats aren't connected to the topic at hand, which is the Trump administration's strangely close relationship with Russia, the resignation of Flynn less than a month into his role, and the resulting grab-bag of concerns. Concerns that are cutting across partisan lines.

It seems like you're trying to take something that's getting less partisan by the day (McCain, Graham, Blunt) and reinterpret it as partisan in order to be dismissive. That doesn't seem very intellectually rigorous or honest.
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I think you're reading more into a response than you should. I'll simplify it for you.

Scout said something about this being what voters asked for and my point is a "screw everyone else" mentality isn't something one party has a monopoly on (including "independents").

I'm dismissive because this is a path we've been on for years.

It's divided and everyone is to blame, and it's become very hard to watch.

And I'm not sure what the answer is.... which is the worst part about it.
 
Sure, I can agree that there's some measure of blame to go around in both parties for the general failures of our politics in the past two decades. I'm not a huge fan of the two party system, personally.

But I also think that you're playing into a truly false equivalence if you're saying that Trump doesn't represent something new and far more dangerous. At this point, I think it's an extremely problematic distraction to default into some pithy generality about the deficiencies of our political system and the shared responsibility of both parties. If we're going to find an 'answer', I think part of the starting point for going forward is to say: This is new and this is different and this is a line that we can't cross.

As I said in a previous post: I share no policy or political views with Mike Pence (or at least I haven't found one yet) but I would, for instance, gladly welcome him in place of Trump. I am absolutely willing to acknowledge that distinction, and it has zero to do with ideology or policy preferences or this side or that side.

Sure, I have plenty of other thoughts on the deficiencies of both parties and I most assuredly have one party with which I am in far, far greater alignment. But that seems really secondary right now.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Who did you like in the last election, primaries included?
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Not sure how this is relevant to the conversation, but I was a Sanders supporter from the start.

I have no trouble criticizing the Democratic Party -- I do it all the time -- nor recognizing the integrity or merit of given Republicans, even though I likely don't see things the same way they do. I've voted for 3rd party candidates.

I've already given examples but if you want more casual specifics: Ben Sasse seems like a decent guy. I have way more respect for John Boehner than I do for Paul Ryan. I'm not much of a fan of either of the Clintons and think that America might be in better shape if Bill had never been President and HW had gotten a second term -- not because I agree more with HW's policy prescriptions but because I see the 90s as the beginning of the end in terms of our ability to have functional political discourse. (Yes, there were lots of other factors, namely the toxic speeding up of the news cycle and horrifying levels of gerrymandering. But, again, if this is our end state then clearly something went real wrong in the 90s. If you run something and it craters after you're in charge then you did something wrong.) I rolled my eyes at Harry Reid. I loved Tom Harkin. I think Scott Walker is a superficial dolt and is driving Wisconsin into the ground. I think John Kasich was the competent executive of a large, complex state. I lived in Louisiana at the start of Bobby Jindal's political career and had real respect for him. I now think he's a hot mess who I wouldn't trust to be my personal accountant. And on it goes.

I think the parties have become so obsessed with 'winning' the news cycle that they've lost a focus on the collaborative nature of governing. No, there was never some halcyon day when politics wasn't nasty. But it used to be far more functional. Politicians used to have at least some understanding that legislative function derived from a give-and-take that required, yes, giving. You can't always get things your way in the course of legislation. Being obstinate or recalcitrant wasn't seen as strong, it was seen as dysfunctional.

And here we are. We've created a politics in which everything is seen in a zero-sum, winner-takes-all light. Obstinance is a way to display strength. Collaboration and nuance are scorned. And, uh, we end up with Donald Trump. It's like someone drew a cartoon of our system's failings and it came to life.

I would far, far, far rather have healthy political parties capable of collaboration and rational discourse and not have 'my side' be 'in charge.' I don't understand why everyone doesn't feel this way. This isn't a team sport, it's the spine & synapses of an extraordinary national experiment that seemed to be in pretty good shape for 200+ years. It leaves me deeply depressed and genuinely bewildered.
 
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New Kid said:
Not sure how this is relevant to the conversation, but I was a Sanders supporter from the start.

I have no trouble criticizing the Democratic Party -- I do it all the time -- nor recognizing the integrity or merit of given Republicans, even though I likely don't see things the same way they do. I've voted for 3rd party candidates.

I've already given examples but if you want more casual specifics: Ben Sasse seems like a decent guy. I have way more respect for John Boehner than I do for Paul Ryan. I'm not much of a fan of either of the Clintons and think that America might be in better shape if Bill had never been President and HW had gotten a second term -- not because I agree more with HW's policy prescriptions but because I see the 90s as the beginning of the end in terms of our ability to have functional political discourse. (Yes, there were lots of other factors, namely the toxic speeding up of the news cycle and horrifying levels of gerrymandering. But, again, if this is our end state then clearly something went real wrong in the 90s. If you run something and it craters after you're in charge then you did something wrong.) I rolled my eyes at Harry Reid. I loved Tom Harkin. I think Scott Walker is a superficial dolt and is driving Wisconsin into the ground. I think John Kasich was the competent executive of a large, complex state. I lived in Louisiana at the start of Bobby Jindal's political career and had real respect for him. I now think he's a hot mess who I wouldn't trust to be my personal accountant. And on it goes.

I think the parties have become so obsessed with 'winning' the news cycle that they've lost a focus on the collaborative nature of governing. No, there was never some halcyon day when politics wasn't nasty. But it used to be far more functional. Politicians used to have at least some understanding that legislative function derived from a give-and-take that required, yes, giving. You can't always get things your way in the course of legislation. Being obstinate or recalcitrant wasn't seen as strong, it was seen as dysfunctional.

And here we are. We've created a politics in which everything is seen in a zero-sum, winner-takes-all light. Obstinance is a way to display strength. Collaboration and nuance are scorned. And, uh, we end up with Donald Trump. It's like someone drew a cartoon of our system's failings and it came to life.

I would far, far, far rather have healthy political parties capable of collaboration and rational discourse and not have 'my side' be 'in charge.' I don't understand why everyone doesn't feel this way. This isn't a team sport, it's the spine & synapses of an extraordinary national experiment that seemed to be in pretty good shape for 200+ years. It leaves me deeply depressed and genuinely bewildered.
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Without commenting on the specifics, or the named individuals, I generally agree with your comment, here.
 
New Kid said:
Not sure how this is relevant to the conversation, but I was a Sanders supporter from the start.

I have no trouble criticizing the Democratic Party -- I do it all the time -- nor recognizing the integrity or merit of given Republicans, even though I likely don't see things the same way they do. I've voted for 3rd party candidates.

I've already given examples but if you want more casual specifics: Ben Sasse seems like a decent guy. I have way more respect for John Boehner than I do for Paul Ryan. I'm not much of a fan of either of the Clintons and think that America might be in better shape if Bill had never been President and HW had gotten a second term -- not because I agree more with HW's policy prescriptions but because I see the 90s as the beginning of the end in terms of our ability to have functional political discourse. (Yes, there were lots of other factors, namely the toxic speeding up of the news cycle and horrifying levels of gerrymandering. But, again, if this is our end state then clearly something went real wrong in the 90s. If you run something and it craters after you're in charge then you did something wrong.) I rolled my eyes at Harry Reid. I loved Tom Harkin. I think Scott Walker is a superficial dolt and is driving Wisconsin into the ground. I think John Kasich was the competent executive of a large, complex state. I lived in Louisiana at the start of Bobby Jindal's political career and had real respect for him. I now think he's a hot mess who I wouldn't trust to be my personal accountant. And on it goes.

I think the parties have become so obsessed with 'winning' the news cycle that they've lost a focus on the collaborative nature of governing. No, there was never some halcyon day when politics wasn't nasty. But it used to be far more functional. Politicians used to have at least some understanding that legislative function derived from a give-and-take that required, yes, giving. You can't always get things your way in the course of legislation. Being obstinate or recalcitrant wasn't seen as strong, it was seen as dysfunctional.

And here we are. We've created a politics in which everything is seen in a zero-sum, winner-takes-all light. Obstinance is a way to display strength. Collaboration and nuance are scorned. And, uh, we end up with Donald Trump. It's like someone drew a cartoon of our system's failings and it came to life.

I would far, far, far rather have healthy political parties capable of collaboration and rational discourse and not have 'my side' be 'in charge.' I don't understand why everyone doesn't feel this way. This isn't a team sport, it's the spine & synapses of an extraordinary national experiment that seemed to be in pretty good shape for 200+ years. It leaves me deeply depressed and genuinely bewildered.
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Thanks for putting it into words. I am from Wisconsin. Couldn't agree more about Walker. Sadly, the Democratic party can not seem to find a viable candidate to oppose him. Meanwhile public education is going down the drain and the University has dropped out of the top 5 in research funding for the first time in 30 years. And those new jobs he promised? Apparently they are all in Minnesota
 
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