It is time to be respectful of those with whom we do not agree. There is no need for personal attack. Whale has attacked the arguments of others on this forum, but has not attacked them personally, nor has he blamed the victim or defended the assailant in this case. Questions about the legal system in general should not be misconstrued to be comments on a specific case.
2019 USMA Cadet Court Martialed
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Okay folks, enough.
This is devolving into a shouting match of ego's and one-upmanship. It's not necessary and it certainly isn't contributing in a way that is helpful to forum members.
Comments like "you need to get with the program" smack of a smugness that is counterproductive. Making claims of institutional "anything" is opinion, not factual, and of little value in a forum that's focus is on news and "goings on" at the SA's. Yes, a court martial of a cadet is a BIG "going on" to discuss, but lets get this discussion back to a more civilized, less antagonistic tone? Either that or it will be closed as it will have outlived its usefullness and worse, might have taken some members to a position where they violate the SAF rules.
Steve
This is devolving into a shouting match of ego's and one-upmanship. It's not necessary and it certainly isn't contributing in a way that is helpful to forum members.
Comments like "you need to get with the program" smack of a smugness that is counterproductive. Making claims of institutional "anything" is opinion, not factual, and of little value in a forum that's focus is on news and "goings on" at the SA's. Yes, a court martial of a cadet is a BIG "going on" to discuss, but lets get this discussion back to a more civilized, less antagonistic tone? Either that or it will be closed as it will have outlived its usefullness and worse, might have taken some members to a position where they violate the SAF rules.
Steve
I actually agree with this, and I do not detect a specific gender bias with whale. I think whale is arguing that a defendant shouldn't be convicted of a crime if the only incriminating evidence is the testimony of the alleged victim. Whale is wrong on this point, but I don't think it is gender bias to think that.
Last thing I will say though is that most criminal sexual conduct cases are committed where they can not be seen by others. While all CSC crimes are horrible, the worst are committed on children. And folks, you can't believe how frequently this occurs. Terrible cases which I could not even describe on this forum. They are almost never done where others can see or here; and this is on purpose, and for obvious reason. Thus, prosecutions are left with the testimony of a terrified little child, and perhaps a counselor and a medical sexual assault expert. Those are tough cases to get convictions on.
Garden variety rape cases between a man and a woman are almost always left with the alleged victim providing the incriminating evidence through her testimony. Sometimes there is other evidence, like a rape kit, but when the defense is consent, that becomes less useful. So it is a he said she said thing. This is not uncommon in the justice system though. Frankly, a huge number of criminal trials come down to two people's testimony, and who a judge or jury believes. Civil cases as well. Nothing wrong with that. Juries can assess the testimonies, and follow the instructions, then make a decision. Most of the time they make the right decision.
There is an old saying that History repeats itself … or at least it rhymes.
Almost four years ago to the day:
https://www.serviceacademyforums.com/index.php?threads/justice-at-west-point.33137/#post-322975
The Wall St Journal published a half-page opinion article today about former USMA cadet Trent Cromartie, who was charged and tried for sexual assault and ultimately separated from the West Point. See page A13 of the July 27-28 WSJ edition or google "WSJ Trent Cromartie."
The article has a lot to say about bad decisions cadets make, the influence of friends and parents, political pressure, and unlawful command influence.
Almost four years ago to the day:
https://www.serviceacademyforums.com/index.php?threads/justice-at-west-point.33137/#post-322975
The Wall St Journal published a half-page opinion article today about former USMA cadet Trent Cromartie, who was charged and tried for sexual assault and ultimately separated from the West Point. See page A13 of the July 27-28 WSJ edition or google "WSJ Trent Cromartie."
The article has a lot to say about bad decisions cadets make, the influence of friends and parents, political pressure, and unlawful command influence.
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A quick true story in regards to brovol's last post. This is the perspective from the law enforcement side and a case I was personally involved in. The heavy burden sexual assault cases have on the investigator, the prosecutor and judge who are just trying to do the right thing without much evidence.
This story has nothing to do with the victim and suspect discussed in this thread.
Our victim was a police officer. She was in a criminal investigation college class and she had approached her professor after the class one day after discussing sexual assaults. She told him that ten years prior, just shy of the statute of limitations expiring, that she had been sexually assaulted on a date when she was 18. Her date had stuck his hand down her pants after she had told him not to. The professor urged her to file charges and that case ended up in my co-workers lap.
We went to the suspect's last known address, which was the parent's home. Very nice house and very nice people. I remember wincing when my partner told the parents that their son was listed as a suspect in a sexual assault that had occurred ten years earlier. The pain was evident on their faces.
The parents told us that their son had lived an exemplary life. He had served in the military, gotten a college degree, was married and had two small children, He also had a great job. My partner told the parents that we would have to contact their son and then the hammer fell. It turned out that the son had also became a police officer.
We sat in our car and wondered, what the heck were we going to do? My partner ender up calling the suspect and his chief who immediately suspended him for being a suspect in a felony. He had to tell his wife, his co-workers, friends and try to explain to his parents.
We staffed the case with the district attorney's office and it was decided to take it grand jury direct. In the end he was not indicted but the damage was done. First a victim and then a suspect who can never truly move on.
This case really got to us. I asked to be transferred soon afterwards and it was the last sexual assault case I was ever involved with.
As brovol stated above. Cases with no witnesses, no evidence, no crime scene. A huge delay in reporting the crime All you have is the testimony of the two parties to the offense and it all comes down to who the jury believes.
This story has nothing to do with the victim and suspect discussed in this thread.
Our victim was a police officer. She was in a criminal investigation college class and she had approached her professor after the class one day after discussing sexual assaults. She told him that ten years prior, just shy of the statute of limitations expiring, that she had been sexually assaulted on a date when she was 18. Her date had stuck his hand down her pants after she had told him not to. The professor urged her to file charges and that case ended up in my co-workers lap.
We went to the suspect's last known address, which was the parent's home. Very nice house and very nice people. I remember wincing when my partner told the parents that their son was listed as a suspect in a sexual assault that had occurred ten years earlier. The pain was evident on their faces.
The parents told us that their son had lived an exemplary life. He had served in the military, gotten a college degree, was married and had two small children, He also had a great job. My partner told the parents that we would have to contact their son and then the hammer fell. It turned out that the son had also became a police officer.
We sat in our car and wondered, what the heck were we going to do? My partner ender up calling the suspect and his chief who immediately suspended him for being a suspect in a felony. He had to tell his wife, his co-workers, friends and try to explain to his parents.
We staffed the case with the district attorney's office and it was decided to take it grand jury direct. In the end he was not indicted but the damage was done. First a victim and then a suspect who can never truly move on.
This case really got to us. I asked to be transferred soon afterwards and it was the last sexual assault case I was ever involved with.
As brovol stated above. Cases with no witnesses, no evidence, no crime scene. A huge delay in reporting the crime All you have is the testimony of the two parties to the offense and it all comes down to who the jury believes.
....and there is a big flip side too. There are certainly a fair share of false accusation of CSC by people with secondary motives. I have a couple stories too lengthy to describe which involved someone being accused and charged with CSC falsely, and the alleged victim ultimately admitting the allegations were false, after the (multiple) versions did not add up. Other times where the case is dismissed because of exculpatory evidence definitively corroborating the defendants story. In fact, I have a case where i presided over a preliminary examination two weeks ago, and had to bind over for trial because the threshold in a prelim is "probable cause", but I noted very serious questions about the alleged victims version of events, and stated that if i was deciding the case at trial I would likely dismiss.
As a former prosecutor CSC cases were the most difficult to charge. You want to be as confident as possible that the accused did it before you charge, as just being charged with criminal sexual conduct leaves such a scar, even if acquitted thereafter. I think most prosecutors take that responsibility very seriously though.
As a former prosecutor CSC cases were the most difficult to charge. You want to be as confident as possible that the accused did it before you charge, as just being charged with criminal sexual conduct leaves such a scar, even if acquitted thereafter. I think most prosecutors take that responsibility very seriously though.
Really worth reading, thanks.
DesertCaliMom
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The very nature of sexual assault means it's a secretive crime with rare witnesses. In the cases I've been involved in, relationships were built in such a way to create vulnerability and layer shame and guilt as a method to stop disclosure. One case involved a suspect whose parent was a judge and the suspect coercing his victims by saying no one would ever believe them. The psychological damage these kinds of things do are the real trauma to rape that never really go away.
Please refer to my initial posts on this topic, and imagine the victim were your sister or your daughter. I have posted several references to what happens to a rape survivor when people insist on doubting his or her story. The thread regarding Mr. Cromartie is an interesting diversion, but in no way parallel, although the discussion that follow it has been parallel. Mr. Cromartie was acquitted of sexual assault. It appears that in his case, the justice system worked as intended, with the benefit of the doubt going to the accused. In this case, THE ASSAILANT WAS CONVICTED! As Judge Brovol has stated, this is not an easy thing to accomplish. I apologize that I became frustrated with some of the responses on this thread, and I appreciate that no specific gender bias was intended. However, I stand by the general thought that there is a problem with this thread, and it affects the victim. Those who do not believe the victim will treat her differently. Her path has become significantly more difficult. There is a large body of literature, including the above article entitled Being Silenced. (listed in the ncbi.nih link on page 4). I can post references until eternity, and they will not change the mind of those that are not willing to try to understand. This is a culture problem, and I will take the small victory of the conviction, and hope that there are more people out there that understand this problem. Please understand that the victim has enough to deal with, and the innocuous "questions about the justice system" do have an impact, regardless of whether or not they seem to refer to the specific case. By doubting the system, you are doubting the victim. Please don't pretend you are not.
1337BeachedWhale1337
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Do you think it didn't hurt Brian Banks when every single person he knew judged him as a rapist, and probably disowned him for it, when he did nothing wrong? Imagine if Brian Banks were your brother or your son. How would you feel if everyone was doubting his story, and calling him all sorts of horrible things, even though he wasn't actually a rapist? Do you see how this goes both ways?
Well said xyz321. I have been struggling to articulate my feelings on the responses that seem to bring up or focus on the rare cases where there is an unjust conviction. In most other types of wrongdoings, people don't put a lot of time into bringing up examples where there have been false accusations or false convictions of such. With sexual assault, be it the media or general population, the story of the wrongful accusation or conviction gets attention. It's juicy. I'm not sure why that is.
I am going to be completely honest, I can tell you that if I did not have a personal familiarity with this case, I would probably be thinking " OK, what did this gal do to bring on this situation?.............." I admit it. I can't put my finger on why I would jump to that position when, as Brovol indicates, the false accusation or false conviction is the exception not the norm. Couple that with the amount of rapes that do not even get reported because the victim does not want to go through with the pain of the process which would appear to be reliving the awful event every day.
The only thing I keep coming back to is that to me the thought of someone taking pleasure in raping someone is so foreign and so bizarre. I can't begin to relate to that action. Because of that, it seems so illogical that someone could take pleasure in such an act or desire to do that. As a result, I think, at least for me, I logically look for other reasons for the incident or accusation. That's a problem and this case has forever changed my paradigm.
The bottom line is that I agree with xyz321. There is a culture problem. As a society, we get incensed about a gorilla being killed by a zoo to save a child. Then, we turn around and many times the first reaction is to raise an eyebrow when a sexual assault is reported.
I am going to be completely honest, I can tell you that if I did not have a personal familiarity with this case, I would probably be thinking " OK, what did this gal do to bring on this situation?.............." I admit it. I can't put my finger on why I would jump to that position when, as Brovol indicates, the false accusation or false conviction is the exception not the norm. Couple that with the amount of rapes that do not even get reported because the victim does not want to go through with the pain of the process which would appear to be reliving the awful event every day.
The only thing I keep coming back to is that to me the thought of someone taking pleasure in raping someone is so foreign and so bizarre. I can't begin to relate to that action. Because of that, it seems so illogical that someone could take pleasure in such an act or desire to do that. As a result, I think, at least for me, I logically look for other reasons for the incident or accusation. That's a problem and this case has forever changed my paradigm.
The bottom line is that I agree with xyz321. There is a culture problem. As a society, we get incensed about a gorilla being killed by a zoo to save a child. Then, we turn around and many times the first reaction is to raise an eyebrow when a sexual assault is reported.
1337BeachedWhale1337
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Because with beating a dog or vandalism, there is clear evidence of the crime. When the issue is consent, things are not so clear. Suzie can say she consents on Sunday, then on Monday she can go to the court house and say she didn't. When it's very clear that a crime took place, obviously no one is going to question a conviction. But in cases such as this where it's simply one person's word against another, things become difficult because there's no evidence of what actually did or did not happen.
Thank you for this. It sometimes help to think of rape as a crime of power, more than of pleasure. It is a way to keep the victim in his or her place. And if we doubt the conviction, we validate the power.
I believe the cadets may watch this video in sharps training. It gives an important perspective https://www.washingtonpost.com/amph...-helping-americans-understand-sexual-consent/
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Again, from the LE side. Not believing the truthfulness of your victim is a direct route to the unemployment line. Times have changed in LE. When I first became a detective in the early 80's we would polygraph victims we thought were lying. Those days are over. As the judge pointed out above their are cases where you are just not sure what to do. It is a slippery slope that affects lives and families. My advice to new investigators is - how will what you do or not do affect your victim, their family, the suspect and the City and how will your actions read in the newspaper tomorrow. If you are not victim oriented you are in the wrong job. Believe me when I say that we hurt for the victims. One of my best friends was a DA investigator over children's sex crimes. He lasted one year and quit LE entirely. He told me that he had seen too much and couldn't take it anymore.
One more quick story. Fourteen year old is out of control so the parents send him to live with his grandfather who was very strict. The juvenile reports that granddad is abusing him and makes an outcry for help. That was enough to get the ball rolling. A report was generated, the case was staffed with the DA's office and the grandfather is arrested. He is sitting in the county jail for months waiting to go to trial and he writes a letter to the local newspaper telling his story and saying that he was probably going to die before he ever went to trial and got the truth out. The newspaper ran with it, the victim recanted and granddaddy was eventually released and the charges were vacated. Bad deal all around.
But, this has nothing to do with the victim of this thread. I believe her. But my point, and that of the Judge and Whale and Desertcalimom and others is that this crime is usually done in secret and the operative word is consent. What would most if not all of us would do if this happened to one of our kids? We all know the answer to that. Head to Canada or Mexico afterwards. As a matter of fact I just read a story yesterday from here in Texas where a father killed the suspect who had sexually assaulted his 5 year old. He was no-billed by a grand jury.
Quote from Lt. Daniel Cathey JAG Corps USN - it doesn't matter what I believe it's what I can prove!
One more quick story. Fourteen year old is out of control so the parents send him to live with his grandfather who was very strict. The juvenile reports that granddad is abusing him and makes an outcry for help. That was enough to get the ball rolling. A report was generated, the case was staffed with the DA's office and the grandfather is arrested. He is sitting in the county jail for months waiting to go to trial and he writes a letter to the local newspaper telling his story and saying that he was probably going to die before he ever went to trial and got the truth out. The newspaper ran with it, the victim recanted and granddaddy was eventually released and the charges were vacated. Bad deal all around.
But, this has nothing to do with the victim of this thread. I believe her. But my point, and that of the Judge and Whale and Desertcalimom and others is that this crime is usually done in secret and the operative word is consent. What would most if not all of us would do if this happened to one of our kids? We all know the answer to that. Head to Canada or Mexico afterwards. As a matter of fact I just read a story yesterday from here in Texas where a father killed the suspect who had sexually assaulted his 5 year old. He was no-billed by a grand jury.
Quote from Lt. Daniel Cathey JAG Corps USN - it doesn't matter what I believe it's what I can prove!
But it isn't simply that. I was not at the trial, but I have been told from two people who were that he initially said that she had texted him inviting him. Phone records proved otherwise.
Yes, his story is horrific. I also know of a young man whose life was turned upside down...and thankfully he was not convicted. It is not a foolproof system but when you take into account the low percentage of rapes that are reported, then add to that the low percentage of those that are prosecuted, then add to that the low percentage that a conviction occurs......I would say our society does not error in favor of victims. As I said, most are not reported....read back thru this whole thread - would you report? I personally know several cadets that walked away from WP after being assaulted, no reports filed. This is not a fault of WP...the academy is safe, prevention and awareness programs are ongoing and excellent. Yes, false accusations occur, but in the grand scheme of things statistically....they are small.
I’m sure that Cadet Whisenhunt will take great solace in knowing that he is just a statistical anomaly.
From what I’ve read on the case, Jacob was offered a plea bargain, but turned it down because he felt he was innocent of any crime.
Just to put a face on the convict, I thought I’d link a support group that offer some background. Take a moment to read the thoughts of the people who know this convict best – including soldiers he served with / his WP TAC officer / Pastor / high school teacher and family members.
https://www.change.org/p/dakota-whi...ence-commuted/c?source_location=petition_show
Oh, just an aside, isn’t Chelsea Manning being released next week? You know the person that was convicted of espionage in July 2013. Apparently leaking intel that gets allies and their families killed by the Taliban deserve less of a punishment.
This episode is a complete tragedy all the way around.
sad reminder that that there are scumbags in every group, the military in general and even at the service academies where we like to think everyone is a perfect person. I would say this one incident pales compared to the scandal at AFA a few years back where sexual assaults had become an epidemic, and if the public knew how common sexual assault is at civilian colleges it would be a national scandal.
Actually not true ... rape and sexual assault is significantly higher in the general population.
For the period 1995–2013, females ages 18 to 24 not enrolled in a post-secondary school were 1.2 times more likely to experience rape and sexual assault victimization (7.6 per1,000), compared to students in the same age range (6.1 per 1,000)
Source: Bureau of Justice Statistics, National Crime Victimization Survey, 1995–2013.
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