Disappointing Read - Death of Cadet Preventable

Hurricane12 said:
Sledge said:
I prefer a warrior elite. YMMV and it might not hit all the demographic check boxes.
Hurricane12 said:
Sledge said:
I prefer a warrior elite. YMMV and it might not hit all the demographic check boxes.
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Remind me...in what capacity did you serve? How do you define a warrior elite?
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I did not serve, you know that, but no one set forth quotas or lower standards to allow/encouraged me to do so. Maybe it would have been a lark.

Warrior elite - Spartans. Teutons, Conan. You know, "Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women." Rather than, "we need a certain percentage, the IOCT is sexist, sleeping outside is cold."

Flame suit securely on, WM. Ban #3 is imminent.
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I can't keep track of the various tough guys on this board [edited *****] the day they were too old to serve and now have Strong Opinions on how horrible it is to have women and minorities in the military, so my question was actually genuine.

Your response just tells me you have no idea what you're talking about. Have fun talking your talk and stirring up angst about the "good old days."
 
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SMP said:
another13mom said:
Football players or not, these are normal kids who, but for the grace of god, make mistakes in judgment. Cadets who aren't football players also get alcohol boards, hide cars in Highland Falls, are accused of sexual misconduct, cheat, etc. The lucky ones are alive to learn from their experience and grow up. And yes, whether on a corps squad or not, they are the minority. This story appears to have been released as part of a personal vendetta by a disgruntled former employee. It's heartbreaking all around.
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They are just normal kids; however, one of the points of the story appears to be that the football players are not always held to the same accountability standards as non-football playing cadets. The "special" treatment of football players is a source of some of the pervading cynicism within the ranks of the cadets.
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Have had two cadets ... and certainly don't dispute that some are held to lower standards than others and some are not provided the same leniency afforded others. Also agree that USMA can and should do more to crack down on unauthorized cars, underage drinking, and blowing post after hours. But that behavior crosses across the corps of cadets, some instances are just more public because of who is caught. It doesn't make it right, but the situation addressed in this article raises behavior that is not isolated to football players.
 
Hurricane12 said:
I can't keep track of the various tough guys on this board [edited *****] the day they were too old to serve...

Your response just tells me you have no idea what you're talking about. Have fun talking your talk and stirring up angst about the "good old days."
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Hurricane, from my gut to your keyboard.

Thank you.
 
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Sledge said:
If you worship the feckless Sue Fulton's of the world, there is a chasm of understanding

Not sure how I derailed this thread. Oh wait, I know, this is what I do
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Ahh, yes. The new generation is soft. I think they found something to this effect on a monument in Rome. Some of the Roman Legion Gaul vets were complaining about the new legionnaires fighting in Palestine and how the standards had fallen. Before that I'm sure Spartan veterans of the 1st Peloponnesian War complained that the Hoplites of the 2nd Peloponnesian War were soft. Whatever.

The truth is, none of the service academies have ever been perfect. They strive to turn out the best LTs they can, but many fall short. A few are stellar, a few are very weak, most fall somewhere between. If you'd like we can have a history lesson on the failures of past graduates. Again, it's not to say West Point is a failure, just that you will never have 100% success in selecting and training future leaders.

But that has little to do with this incident. This was a case of a Cadet pushing the boundaries and making a mistake. It's an old tale at all the academies and in the military in general. It is not indicative of a problem. It's a pendulum that swings back and forth between Cadets pushing the boundaries and the Cadre cracking down and it will continue long after we are dead and buried.
 
Sledge said:
I prefer a warrior elite. YMMV and it might not hit all the demographic check boxes.
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Military elite yes. Warrior elite not so much. Most of the Soldiers/Sailors/Marines walking patrol, disarming IED's, forward air controlling, dying are enlisted personnel.

There are notable exceptions.

On June 8, 120 days into his tour of duty in Iraq, Khan was inspecting a guard post near Baqubah when a suspicious taxicab began approaching quickly. Ordering his subordinates away, Khan ran toward the vehicle and was killed when the bomb with which it was fitted exploded. The car detonated before it could reach the installation gates or the nearby mess hall where hundreds of soldiers were eating. The blast also killed the two occupants of the vehicle and two Iraqi bystanders.
 
mom3boys said:
Agree. We all know about the unauthorized parking lots in HF and Garrison...I for one wish they'd crack down on these.
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Been going on since before you and I were born. Before cars I'm sure they had unauthorized horses. Not to condone it, but it's nothing new and not a sign of sliding standards.
 
UHBlackhawk said:
Sledge said:
If you worship the feckless Sue Fulton's of the world, there is a chasm of understanding

Not sure how I derailed this thread. Oh wait, I know, this is what I do
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Ahh, yes. The new generation is soft. I think they found something to this effect on a monument in Rome. Some of the Roman Legion Gaul vets were complaining about the new legionnaires fighting in Palestine and how the standards had fallen. Before that I'm sure Spartan veterans of the 1st Peloponnesian War complained that the Hoplites of the 2nd Peloponnesian War were soft. Whatever.

The truth is, none of the service academies have ever been perfect. They strive to turn out the best LTs they can, but many fall short. A few are stellar, a few are very weak, most fall somewhere between. If you'd like we can have a history lesson on the failures of past graduates. Again, it's not to say West Point is a failure, just that you will never have 100% success in selecting and training future leaders.

But that has little to do with this incident. This was a case of a Cadet pushing the boundaries and making a mistake. It's an old tale at all the academies and in the military in general. It is not indicative of a problem. It's a pendulum that swings back and forth between Cadets pushing the boundaries and the Cadre cracking down and it will continue long after we are dead and buried.
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I think the point of the article was that this was not simply a case of a Cadet pushing the boundaries and making a mistake. It was more about the culpability of the Academy in facilitating the tragedy by not holding football players to the same accountability standards as other cadets when they push a boundary and make a mistake. At least, that is how I read the article. Note that the headline is: "West Point Let Football Star Break Rules Before Drunk Driving Death, Investigation Found", and the sub headline is "Internal documents show the military academy goes easy on athletes who violate the honor code - in one case, with fatal consequences."
When you continually give a group of people preferential or special treatment you are sending the message that the rules that apply to everyone else don't necessarily apply to them. As a result, they are far more likely to push beyond the boundaries of permissible behavior.
 
Kids being kids is a cop-out argument. SAs can and should be held to high standards not because they can be but because we expect it. That's the biggest issue here, there's a different standard not being enforced across the board. These youth are capable of meeting the higher standard and if they weren't then they shouldn't be there.

It can't and shouldn't matter why,
 
So is anyone here decrying disparate treatment for any group at USMA a current cadet who knows every other cadet at USMA and who also knows everything about their day in and day out routines and interactions? Unless you do then you have zero basis for any accusations. I currently have a firstie and a cow and I also have a neighbor who has a cow and another who had a plebe at West Point and all this gives me zero ability to make any sweeping conclusions about any group of cadets. Good grief.
 
The cadets knew all about this months ago.
There’s not much to like about it, but it’s a gnat on an elephants ass relative to why they’re at West Point and what they need to focus on. Try to move along... the cadets already have.
 
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