AFROTC 2018 Rated Boards

What worries me most is that it looks to me like the AF is in need of STEM majors with high GPA's for CSO slots and that is why he didn't get pilot. And now they are dangling a carrot in front of him, telling him that he is high up (because of his high scores) on the alternate list for pilot as long as he doesn't decline CSO. But why would they allow him to take an alternate pilot slot down the road if they were trying to fill CSO positions with engineering majors? It doesn't seem to me like he has any real chance of getting an alternate slot.

What is his major? I know for several years they allowed only 5% of EEs to go rated since they were deemed critical manning. NOTE I said rated, not just pilot.
~ IOWS, it might be that his score was high enough to go rated, but because they only take so many percentage wise he moved down to the CSO.

The last I knew was that alternate is OML, which means his major has no impact, it is a line number. IOWS if he is number 15, and 15 do not pass the FAA physical or fail school, etc he will move from CSO to Pilot. It is not unusual for 15, 20, 25% of UPT selects to not pass the FAA FC1.
~ When DS went to WPAFB for his FC1, he was in a group that did not pass the EKG. There were 20-25 of them out of 100 doing the exams. They sent them the next day for an EEG. He passed, but 5 did not. There was a cadet at his det that did Lasik and his eyes still were no good for UPT.
~ Bullet went for his and they said his scoliosis was DQ for rated. His folks took him to a renown scoliosis specialist at Cedars Sinai, and the AF accepted it and gave him a waiver, but that paperwork did not come down until Jan/Feb his sr. yr. Had they not waived it, somebody else on the alt. list would have been given his slot.

I think you are confusing the alternate board with being a CSO AND an alternate pilot on this list.

Just saying you would be surprised how often people move off that alternate list before they commission. I am not saying take that CSO, but as the CoC stated if he does not sign the paperwork, than it is over for him.

I am not sure CSO is a good fit for him. I mean this with the utmost kindness, but I think he has what fliers call single seat mentality. He sees it as a 2nd class citizen, and not a peer. If not that it is his follow on career which everyone in the AF flying world calls being a bus driver in the sky (SWA, United, Delta, etc)
~ F15Es cannot do their mission with just the pilot, which is why the pilots respect the WSO.

I think he needs to really see the bigger picture. As I stated before Bullet is the only AF GS selected to go to National Defense University (Eisenhower School) out of the entire Pentagon. He is the go to guy for any fighter/bomber regarding procurement and requirements, including the 15, 16, 22 and 35 all single seats.
~ He will be doing his last TDY in his position prior to starting NDU in May. He is going to Australia because they also purchased the 35. He has gone there every other yr. He has gone to Israel, they too will have the 35. He has gone to Germany. He just returned from TX.
~~ Just saying his 2nd career is not as exciting as flying an F15E in Alaska, but he still has that connection.

His peer out of England (F111 WSO) originally started flying a desk (engineer) got a nav slot and took it as a young Captain. Since he was an engineer major he applied for test school, and got it. He eventually applied and got NASA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_T._Good

I do get the angst, truly I do. If he truly will hate being a CSO, than decline the position.
Thank you so much Pima for all that information! My son is now trying to get more info about the CSO job. I don't think he feels he would hate the CSO job, he just doesn't know what to think about it because he doesn't really know anything about it. He was also just a little in shock that with his scores being substantially higher than the other pilot slot recipients he didn't get a pilot slot. He majored in geological engineering and has a high GPA so I'm guessing maybe they need more engineering majors in the CSO positions. I read on the AF website that CSO's must have a STEM major and at least a 3.2 GPA. However my son knows another CSO recipient who didn't have a STEM major, so they might just have to waive that requirement in order to be able to fill all the slots.

Again thank you very much for the good CSO info, and any other suggestions you might have on how he can become more familiar with the CSO job would be greatly appreciated.
 
The one complaint I’d say I have with AFROTC is that it’s EXTREMELY hard as a cadet to get ANY sense of what any career on active duty is really like. Without military experience in their family, most cadets are really choosing a job fairly blindly and going on AD without knowing much about it. It’s really the nature of the game. Anyhow, I just want to put it out there that it’s really hard to figure out what your AD life will look like while in ROTC. At some point cadets/new Lts will realize that all the preparation they had (or didn’t have) is moot and they’ve just got to roll with the punches. As much as you try to plan things, the AF has their own idea of what’s in store....;)

Sorry for rambling a bit, but just think it’s important to know that you can do all the research you want, however reality will be far different than expected. Not just directed at @22skidoo but at all cadets/future cadets.
 
Here's an update on my son who had very competitive scores for pilot but received CSO. After three months of confusion he was just informed that his preferences were reported incorrectly to the rated board. He filled out the preference form with pilot "high" and CSO "medium" but cadre then has to input those preferences into a computer system and that's where the error occurred. The rated board received a preference of high for CSO, so that's what they gave him. Cadre has told him that all they can do for him is tell him that he is on the alternate list for pilot. At this point my son has not seen any written verification that he is on the alternate list, or what his position is on the list. From what I've read the alternate list is by OM score. With his high OM score, higher than many other pilot recipients, he should be right at the top. But in the time that has passed since his cadre told him he is on the list, he's seen other cadets getting pilot slots off the alternate list, cadets with scores lower than his.

He would really like to be able to verify that he is in fact on the alternate list, and what his position is on that list. In light of the fact that his preferences were misrepresented to the board by his cadre I think that is a reasonable request.

He has been to his cadre multiple times for answers and a remedy and neither has been provided. He is now in the process of filling out an IG complaint. Anyone who has any other ideas on how to proceed with this new information please chime in.
 
Here's an update on my son who had very competitive scores for pilot but received CSO. After three months of confusion he was just informed that his preferences were reported incorrectly to the rated board. He filled out the preference form with pilot "high" and CSO "medium" but cadre then has to input those preferences into a computer system and that's where the error occurred. The rated board received a preference of high for CSO, so that's what they gave him. Cadre has told him that all they can do for him is tell him that he is on the alternate list for pilot. At this point my son has not seen any written verification that he is on the alternate list, or what his position is on the list. From what I've read the alternate list is by OM score. With his high OM score, higher than many other pilot recipients, he should be right at the top. But in the time that has passed since his cadre told him he is on the list, he's seen other cadets getting pilot slots off the alternate list, cadets with scores lower than his.

He would really like to be able to verify that he is in fact on the alternate list, and what his position is on that list. In light of the fact that his preferences were misrepresented to the board by his cadre I think that is a reasonable request.

He has been to his cadre multiple times for answers and a remedy and neither has been provided. He is now in the process of filling out an IG complaint. Anyone who has any other ideas on how to proceed with this new information please chime in.

While it is frustrating to see cadre mess up and your son has to pay the price there is unfortunately nothing the Air Force can do more than putting him in the alternate list. My best friend who convinced me to join and stay in AFROTC didn't get an EA since my cadre mistakenly put his application to the nontech nonrated board (Back when it was 17% acceptance). I remember the gut punching feel that despite his active participation in the Det and hard work he couldn't progress with me. Felt like a betrayal to the idea that good work rewards you. If I was in your son's shoes (and I thought about it as a cadet not wanting any other rated position other than pilot) I would wait out a month before commissioning to see if he gets picked up for pilot. He should go through some soul searching to see if he can be at peace about being a CSO. If he can't and has no strings attached he can leave ROTC before commissioning. I know a couple cadets that did this and my commander strongly advise anyone that is not happy about their future/assignment to not commission.

One huge thing I've learned in active duty is that no matter how hard you've worked to obtain your dreams you need a bit of luck and networking to make it happen. I've seen countless friends that wanted to become fighter pilots only to get their hearts broken. I know many people to have gotten their bottom choices despite being truly good people. I've gotten an assignment I put down dead last because the Air Force needed bodies and I was considered the only fit. As frustrating as it is to see dreams fall through the only solace I can give is that luck can be good or bad for some people. The Air Force still needs someone to be a CSO and unfortunately they have picked your son. If he cannot accept that he won't be happy and no one wants to ride with an unhappy CSO.
 
Here's an update on my son who had very competitive scores for pilot but received CSO. After three months of confusion he was just informed that his preferences were reported incorrectly to the rated board. He filled out the preference form with pilot "high" and CSO "medium" but cadre then has to input those preferences into a computer system and that's where the error occurred. The rated board received a preference of high for CSO, so that's what they gave him. Cadre has told him that all they can do for him is tell him that he is on the alternate list for pilot. At this point my son has not seen any written verification that he is on the alternate list, or what his position is on the list. From what I've read the alternate list is by OM score. With his high OM score, higher than many other pilot recipients, he should be right at the top. But in the time that has passed since his cadre told him he is on the list, he's seen other cadets getting pilot slots off the alternate list, cadets with scores lower than his.

He would really like to be able to verify that he is in fact on the alternate list, and what his position is on that list. In light of the fact that his preferences were misrepresented to the board by his cadre I think that is a reasonable request.

He has been to his cadre multiple times for answers and a remedy and neither has been provided. He is now in the process of filling out an IG complaint. Anyone who has any other ideas on how to proceed with this new information please chime in.

I just commissioned with a CSO slot (wanted pilot) and can somewhat relate to his situation. Once you apply for the rated board and receive a slot you are automatically put in the alternate pool with cadets from across the country. They won't tell you your position on the list so it is really your best guess on where he lies on the list based on pcsm/gpa/CC ranking. There are times when cadets might get picked up for pilot with lower scores but from what I have seen this usually happens because they have a closer commissioning/graduation date. For example a senior in their final semester might take priority over a junior who is about to start their senior year. If the issues with his cadre end in no result my best advice to him is to continue to have them update his stats such as his gpa in wings at the end of each semester and pcsm (if he gets more flt hours), both will help him climb higher on the list, also make sure his graduation date in wings is correct as well. Next is to be patient, slots open up throughout the year from cadets who are DQ'd at their FC1 and those who are dropped for other various reasons. He has until he commissions to get picked up for pilot so all hope is not lost. I have heard of cadets getting pilot slots a few weeks before they commission, it's a stressful waiting game. However at the end of the day it really comes down to the needs of the AF. If his heart is truly in the sky then being is CSO is a great gig and he can still apply for pilot on the active duty boards after a few years so long as he focuses on being the best CSO he can be. That's just my two cents
 
He is now in the process of filling out an IG complaint. Anyone who has any other ideas on how to proceed with this new information please chime in.

JMPO and with $2.07 you can get a small coffee at Starbucks, but I WOULD NOT file an IG complaint. The reason why is that will cause the wrath of the AF to come down on the CoC and their staff. IOWS he will become "THAT GUY". It will send the unit into a spiral, and as much as he might think it will remain quiet, it won't. Cadets will notice an IG investigator poking around the det. The cadre will inform the cadet hierarchy (CWC, CVWC, etc) that the unit is being investigated by the IG due to a cadet. They will know why the IG is there...i.e. didn't get a pilot slot.
~ The cadets aren't stupid. They can do 2 + 2 and if I have read your post properly your DS would be the answer of 4.
~~ I am not saying the cadre would cause any issues, but he needs to realize and understand that he may become the pariah in the unit. There maybe cadets that feel your DS has sour grapes and now is throwing the unit under the bus.
~~~ He needs to realize that by placing an IG complaint he is basically putting every ADAF member in the unit in promotion jeopardy. ROTC CoC is usually their final tour before retirement, but not true for that PMS Captain that did this as their "DESK" assignment. The unit will be on HQ AFROTC radar as soon as he does this action. Their bullet points for their OPR/PRF will not be the BEST detachment of their size in the nation. Ask him to think about 8-10 yrs from now, when he is up for O4 as an O3 at an AFROTC unit, does he really want to take the hit because a cadet filed an IG complaint? IG complaints are HUGE, let me say it again HUGE!

I get he wants to be a pilot, I truly do. However, as I stated before as a CSO wife, and a pilot's Mom, but I am just as proud of my DH as I am of my DS. My DH (F15E WSO) would come home and say I can't believe they pay me to do this! He never felt like a 2nd class citizen. He retired as an O5, and is the F35 program go to guy...a WSO working on a single seat airframe, iows pilot only.

I wish your DS the best of luck, and hope all works out.
 
He is now in the process of filling out an IG complaint.
I’d say go for it. Your son shouldn’t have to pay for the careless mistake of others. It would be one thing if he had incorrectly filled out the paperwork, but he did everything correctly and there’s no excuse for lack of attention to detail on their part. Honestly, if the CO of that detachment was any kind of a good leader, he would have already made some calls and gotten the decision reversed.
He should go through some soul searching to see if he can be at peace about being a CSO. If he can't and has no strings attached he can leave ROTC before commissioning. I know a couple cadets that did this and my commander strongly advise anyone that is not happy about their future/assignment to not commission.
The problem is, you run the risk of having to enlist if you want out. My commander was one of those guys that basically said “Just focus on being an Air Force officer and not what job you get”. Well, yea that’s all well and good but half of being a good officer is being good at your job, and to be good at your job you at least have to be content with where you are. It sounds to me like your commander actually gave a damn about the future of the cadets under him and treated them as people rather than numbers.
 
He is now in the process of filling out an IG complaint. Anyone who has any other ideas on how to proceed with this new information please chime in.

JMPO and with $2.07 you can get a small coffee at Starbucks, but I WOULD NOT file an IG complaint. The reason why is that will cause the wrath of the AF to come down on the CoC and their staff. IOWS he will become "THAT GUY". It will send the unit into a spiral, and as much as he might think it will remain quiet, it won't. Cadets will notice an IG investigator poking around the det. The cadre will inform the cadet hierarchy (CWC, CVWC, etc) that the unit is being investigated by the IG due to a cadet. They will know why the IG is there...i.e. didn't get a pilot slot.
~ The cadets aren't stupid. They can do 2 + 2 and if I have read your post properly your DS would be the answer of 4.
~~ I am not saying the cadre would cause any issues, but he needs to realize and understand that he may become the pariah in the unit. There maybe cadets that feel your DS has sour grapes and now is throwing the unit under the bus.
~~~ He needs to realize that by placing an IG complaint he is basically putting every ADAF member in the unit in promotion jeopardy. ROTC CoC is usually their final tour before retirement, but not true for that PMS Captain that did this as their "DESK" assignment. The unit will be on HQ AFROTC radar as soon as he does this action. Their bullet points for their OPR/PRF will not be the BEST detachment of their size in the nation. Ask him to think about 8-10 yrs from now, when he is up for O4 as an O3 at an AFROTC unit, does he really want to take the hit because a cadet filed an IG complaint? IG complaints are HUGE, let me say it again HUGE!

I get he wants to be a pilot, I truly do. However, as I stated before as a CSO wife, and a pilot's Mom, but I am just as proud of my DH as I am of my DS. My DH (F15E WSO) would come home and say I can't believe they pay me to do this! He never felt like a 2nd class citizen. He retired as an O5, and is the F35 program go to guy...a WSO working on a single seat airframe, iows pilot only.

I wish your DS the best of luck, and hope all works out.
Then my question to you would be, does reporting an IG complaint add to his chances of moving to a pilot spot? If not, then there doenst seem to be any point in making a report. If this was just a clerical error when someone entered in the computer, I dont see why the detachment should be punished. As a CPA who inputs thousands of numbers into a computer every year, even with the most care, information will be entered incorrectly. Part II of my job is verify that everything i entered is correct, but even with that mistakes are made.
 
Here's an update on my son who had very competitive scores for pilot but received CSO. After three months of confusion he was just informed that his preferences were reported incorrectly to the rated board. He filled out the preference form with pilot "high" and CSO "medium" but cadre then has to input those preferences into a computer system and that's where the error occurred. The rated board received a preference of high for CSO, so that's what they gave him. Cadre has told him that all they can do for him is tell him that he is on the alternate list for pilot. At this point my son has not seen any written verification that he is on the alternate list, or what his position is on the list. From what I've read the alternate list is by OM score. With his high OM score, higher than many other pilot recipients, he should be right at the top. But in the time that has passed since his cadre told him he is on the list, he's seen other cadets getting pilot slots off the alternate list, cadets with scores lower than his.

He would really like to be able to verify that he is in fact on the alternate list, and what his position is on that list. In light of the fact that his preferences were misrepresented to the board by his cadre I think that is a reasonable request.

He has been to his cadre multiple times for answers and a remedy and neither has been provided. He is now in the process of filling out an IG complaint. Anyone who has any other ideas on how to proceed with this new information please chime in.


So I'm currently a senior with a pilot slot. Originally I was RPA and in literally a week, I went to CSO, then pilot. This happened middle of April and I commission in June. Needs of the air force and some luck. Moral of the story don't give up, there's always a chance.

Point number two: my Commander let me sit in on a rated webinar last year and it showed how preferences worked. Remember needs of the air force come first. But how it works is, Pilot slots are given out first, then CSOs, then RPA, then ABM. Preferences add weight, BUT, in order to receive a CSO slot you need to have been passed over for pilot, in order to get RPA, you need to get passed over for pilot and CSO. Im assuming they still correctly added high for pilot in addition to high for CSO. In this case, it just means he probably is not meant to get pilot the first time around. Funky things happen behind the scenes that wet may never know about that may influence decisions. There is still a supplemental board in September, and updated preferences can be added. If his scores are as high as you say, then there's a good possibility he can get moved up. Personally, I didn't get moved up on the supplemental but it eventually worked out and I got what I wanted. I would think filing an IG complaint could put him in a bad spot with cadre whether they admit it or not. My 2 cents if course.
 
Good news! The IG complaint worked, DS was given a pilot slot. Thank you to everyone for your support and advice during what was an extremely difficult time.
 
Good news! The IG complaint worked, DS was given a pilot slot. Thank you to everyone for your support and advice during what was an extremely difficult time.
great news. I am sure you are happy you went with your gut and made the complaint. No reason he had to pay for someone elses error
 
Good news! The IG complaint worked, DS was given a pilot slot. Thank you to everyone for your support and advice during what was an extremely difficult time.

That seemed to move quickly. Glad that has worked out for your son. I'm curious if there was any backlash in the detachment from the complaint.
 
I am curious too regarding any backlash. Don't mean to be a downer.
 
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