Scoliosis/pilot training

I’ve been accepted to USAFA and I’m looking at possible majors. When I was evaluated for my DoDMERB I had 22 degrees of lumbar scoliosis which is down to 18 degrees now. In my USAFA letter they mentioned that my scoliosis might disqualify me from special ops and pilot training if verified upon graduation. If it’s 18 degrees(or less) when I graduate would I still be disqualified from pilot training? Does anyone know what the benchmark is for that? Thanks.

I would be curious too becsuse DD is being watched.

ONLY USAF flight surgeons can answer this question. And they'd have to get a ruling from higher headquarters.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

The Cobb angle for your scoliosis has to be less than or equal to 20 degrees to get a qualified FCI/IA flight physical. No waivers are given if above 20 degrees.

Depending on the study you read, your scoliosis has about a 15-20% chance of progressing. The Cobb angle will be very close to the standard by the time you get a FCI flight physical.

The issue is those with scoliosis have an increased risk of spinal injuries when exposed to high vertical G-forces such as when an ejection seat has to be used.

GoCubbies said:

The issue is those with scoliosis have an increased risk of spinal injuries when exposed to high vertical G-forces such as when an ejection seat has to be used.

Click to expand...

Another dumb rule the AF has. The likelihood of having to eject from an aircraft during a pilot’s career is low anyway, not to mention the fact that not all aircraft in the AF’s inventory even have ejection seats. Another BS reg written by some quack flight doc.

Tex232 said:

GoCubbies said:

The issue is those with scoliosis have an increased risk of spinal injuries when exposed to high vertical G-forces such as when an ejection seat has to be used.

Click to expand...

Another dumb rule the AF has. The likelihood of having to eject from an aircraft during a pilot’s career is low anyway, not to mention the fact that not all aircraft in the AF’s inventory even have ejection seats. Another BS reg written by some quack flight doc.

Click to expand...

With your vast knowledge of pilot training and flight medicine, you'd understand that every AF pilot currently in the pipeline spends their first few months at UPT in the T-6, which does, in fact, have an ejection seat. Sucks, but the leniency for PQ and scoliosis is fairly high when compared to some other non-waiverable conditions.

GoCubbies said:

The Cobb angle for your scoliosis has to be less than or equal to 20 degrees to get a qualified FCI/IA flight physical. No waivers are given if above 20 degrees.

Depending on the study you read, your scoliosis has about a 15-20% chance of progressing. The Cobb angle will be very close to the standard by the time you get a FCI flight physical.

The issue is those with scoliosis have an increased risk of spinal injuries when exposed to high vertical G-forces such as when an ejection seat has to be used.

Click to expand...

My son's childhood friend who is law school now and not military had about 10% when he was younger. I think it was when he was 11 or so. It went down to zero as he got older. Of course the kids is about 6.4 now so maybe he outgrew itas he got taller.

BlahuKahuna said:

Tex232 said:

GoCubbies said:

The issue is those with scoliosis have an increased risk of spinal injuries when exposed to high vertical G-forces such as when an ejection seat has to be used.

Click to expand...

Another dumb rule the AF has. The likelihood of having to eject from an aircraft during a pilot’s career is low anyway, not to mention the fact that not all aircraft in the AF’s inventory even have ejection seats. Another BS reg written by some quack flight doc.

Click to expand...

With your vast knowledge of pilot training and flight medicine, you'd understand that every AF pilot currently in the pipeline spends their first few months at UPT in the T-6, which does, in fact, have an ejection seat. Sucks, but the leniency for PQ and scoliosis is fairly high when compared to some other non-waiverable conditions.

Click to expand...

And you know as well as I do that you’re not even in the T-6 for a year. Again, the odds for ejection are low in a pilot’s career, and definitely even lower if you’re in a non-ejection equipped aircraft for the majority of your career. All in perspective I guess.

Tex232 said:

And you know as well as I do that you’re not even in the T-6 for a year. Again, the odds for ejection are low in a pilot’s career, and definitely even lower if you’re in a non-ejection equipped aircraft for the majority of your career. All in perspective I guess.

Click to expand...

Yeah, but that's not the point. Pulling your pin and preparing your ejection seat before every sortie isn't optional, and that's why ejection seat procedures are emphasized so highly in the T-6. The Martin Baker ejection seat has a pretty decent success rate, but the T-6 ejection system has hurt some people pretty badly, even without scoliosis as an additional risk factor. The AF has to draw lines on acceptable risks, and they do this knowing that there are some people that get cheated out of opportunities in the process.

A similar example would be height waivers and why they frequently only qualify pilot trainees to go onto the T-1 in Phase 3. Are there plenty of aircraft after the T-38 that don't have height restrictions that the waivers don't cover? Sure, but the T-38C itself has the restriction, which drives the limitations of the waivers.

With the direct to T-1 program and some of the other UPT adaptations that are coming, some of these restrictions may be relaxed slightly, but as is, if someone can't sit in an ejection seat, they can't train and fly in the T-6.

wildblueyonder57 said:

I’ve been accepted to USAFA and I’m looking at possible majors. When I was evaluated for my DoDMERB I had 22 degrees of lumbar scoliosis which is down to 18 degrees now. In my USAFA letter they mentioned that my scoliosis might disqualify me from special ops and pilot training if verified upon graduation. If it’s 18 degrees(or less) when I graduate would I still be disqualified from pilot training? Does anyone know what the benchmark is for that? Thanks.

Click to expand...

What did you do to change the degree of your scoliosis from 22 to 18? I did not know it was possible with out a brace or surgery.

Meli1229 said:

wildblueyonder57 said:

I’ve been accepted to USAFA and I’m looking at possible majors. When I was evaluated for my DoDMERB I had 22 degrees of lumbar scoliosis which is down to 18 degrees now. In my USAFA letter they mentioned that my scoliosis might disqualify me from special ops and pilot training if verified upon graduation. If it’s 18 degrees(or less) when I graduate would I still be disqualified from pilot training? Does anyone know what the benchmark is for that? Thanks.

Click to expand...

What did you do to change the degree of your scoliosis from 22 to 18? I did not know it was possible with out a brace or surgery.

Click to expand...

It can sometimes correct itself especially in when the degree wasnt bad in the first place. We have friends whose daughter was diagnosed around 12 or 13 and now that she is around 18, she has almost nothing. I dont if 1-5 degree off is classified as having scholiosis (i have no idea what she has) but she is no longer diagnosed as having it

I think many are missing the point. This is not just an AF reg., but it is an FAA reg too. Hence why it is difficult to get a waiver.
~Want to know why many pilots cut and run at the earliest point, besides the op tempo these days? Airlines make them take another FAA FC1 physical to be hired. The older you get the higher the risk you will fail that exam.

As far as chances of ejecting being low, I hold a much different view. By the time my husband finished his 1st tour (F 111) we attended 6 funerals (both the pilot and WSOs died in these crashes). Our next tour was with the 82nd. We were there when a 16 clipped a C130's tail coming in for approach. The 16 pilot ejected safely. We arrived at Elmendorf shortly after the AWAC crash due to a bird strike. Granted that is not an ejection seat, but it could have easily been a 15 that day since it was a bird strike. 4 yrs later an F15E went down and the crew of 2 were killed. My husband flew with both of them in AK.
~ Maybe we were unfortunate with so many crashes. Caveat 2 of the crashes (F111 and 15E) were combat.

FFWD to my DS. He has already lost 1 classmate from his AFROTC days a T 38 pilot at Del Rio only a few short months ago. 4 colleagues in his C130J squadron before he had been operational less than 3 yrs were killed in a crash.

If all of them were like my husband and DS they all knew the risks, but none of them entered flying with the thought that they would ever pull that handle.
~ Think about it the way the AF sees it with their "dumb" rules and regs. Why are you not allowed to wear a wedding ring when flying (at least that was true in my DHs days) because you had a risk of it getting caught and losing a finger even if you ejected safely.

As far as scoliosis goes, we have it in our family. My SIL and niece both had operations. Scoliosis degrees can change, but they rarely do after you stop growing. My DH has scoliosis, and he was given a remedial because the X ray showed his curvature at 21 degrees when he did his FC1 physical at WPAFB, Due to the fact his sister had the surgery, his parents immediately took him to his sisters doc in NYC. The doc re-did his xray. The results were under 17 degree, no waiver needed. AF accepted those results from this doc., because of the doctors credentials. The doc was the groundbreaker for the surgery and written up in everything from medical journals to People magazine. Hard for them to go against the premier authority at that time regarding scoliosis. He flew ejection seat airframes his entire career and also jumped out of perfectly good airplanes with the 82nd.
~ The doc wrote in the report that it was visible in the AF xrays that my DH had not held his breath entirely during their xray, whereas on the specialists xray he did, thus why the curvature was within limits.

I am sorry, for being Debbie Downer regarding crashes, but it is impo I doubt many ejection seat pilots that leave the AF will walk away without knowing someone that they trained with or flew with or was in the squadron shortly before getting there that hasn't died. Walk into any fighter bar where they place their name patch on the wall when they leave, 10 will get me 20 that at least 1 patch on that wall is upside down. Upside down means that they died before their tour ended, aka crash.

Tex232 said:

Another dumb rule the AF has. The likelihood of having to eject from an aircraft during a pilot’s career is low anyway, not to mention the fact that not all aircraft in the AF’s inventory even have ejection seats. Another BS reg written by some quack flight doc.

Click to expand...

Wow...pretty bold statement. Curious whether Tex is already in the Air Force ? If just an applicant at this point, would suggest considering another line of work. Here's a hint -- there is a reason for all the BS regulations ... and that reason often is the result of blood being spilled (or paralysis in the event of a bad ejection). Another hint, none of the military services exist to accomodate individual wants and desires--they are written for the common good. Finally, keep in mind, there is no shortage of young men and women who want to fly jets (although there may be a retention problem), USAF can afford to be very selective in their pilot accession requirements.

Old Navy BGO said:

Tex232 said:

Another dumb rule the AF has. The likelihood of having to eject from an aircraft during a pilot’s career is low anyway, not to mention the fact that not all aircraft in the AF’s inventory even have ejection seats. Another BS reg written by some quack flight doc.

Click to expand...

Wow...pretty bold statement. Curious whether Tex is already in the Air Force ? If just an applicant at this point, would suggest considering another line of work. Here's a hint -- there is a reason for all the BS regulations ... and that reason often is the result of blood being spilled (or paralysis in the event of a bad ejection). Another hint, none of the military services exist to accomodate individual wants and desires--they are written for the common good. Finally, keep in mind, there is no shortage of young men and women who want to fly jets (although there may be a retention problem), USAF can afford to be very selective in their pilot accession requirements.

Click to expand...

I agree with Tex232 in that unless you are in a fighter and maybe a bomber, you arent going to have deal with an ejection seat. Having said that, everyone learns to fly with the T-6 and that does have an ejection seat. While the T-38 also has an ejection seat, I would assume the T-1 doesnt. Since all pilots start at the same point, you are going to have to need them all in perfect shape (more or less). The only way things could be different is if they had a whole separate program for transport pilots where they would have their own non ejector seat plane for learning to fly. One other point, I dont buy the rationale that their is always a good reason for regulations. These are government agencies that love their bureacracies and they may have rules that they have inherited over the many years and there may be rules that no longer have a purpose. I am not apply this to this issue as the regulation makes sense based on how the pilots are trained but just because an agency has a regulation, it doesnt mean it is a good regulation

Let's talk about this in 4 yrs.

(I love PIMA!)

Tex232 said:

BlahuKahuna said:

Tex232 said:

GoCubbies said:

The issue is those with scoliosis have an increased risk of spinal injuries when exposed to high vertical G-forces such as when an ejection seat has to be used.

Click to expand...

Another dumb rule the AF has. The likelihood of having to eject from an aircraft during a pilot’s career is low anyway, not to mention the fact that not all aircraft in the AF’s inventory even have ejection seats. Another BS reg written by some quack flight doc.

Click to expand...

With your vast knowledge of pilot training and flight medicine, you'd understand that every AF pilot currently in the pipeline spends their first few months at UPT in the T-6, which does, in fact, have an ejection seat. Sucks, but the leniency for PQ and scoliosis is fairly high when compared to some other non-waiverable conditions.

Click to expand...

And you know as well as I do that you’re not even in the T-6 for a year. Again, the odds for ejection are low in a pilot’s career, and definitely even lower if you’re in a non-ejection equipped aircraft for the majority of your career. All in perspective I guess.

Click to expand...

Actually, it's not "in perspective" at all; it's a standard that must be met. That's it, period: if you can't fly an ejection seat, then currently you can't attend USAF pilot training. There's also a sitting height requirement. Why? It was originally in place because in the T-38 back seat, there's a shorter seat-to-canopy clearance distance. If you have to bend your head forward to lower the canopy, then if you were to eject and your head is bent, you risk fracturing your entire spine which is normally fatal. That height restriction is still in place, even with the T-6/T-1 combination, so it must still have impact; probably in the T-6?

So...meet that standard or don't qualify.

It's really simple: these are the standards of the service, you meet them or you don't.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

Tex232 said:

And you know as well as I do that you’re not even in the T-6 for a year. Again, the odds for ejection are low in a pilot’s career, and definitely even lower if you’re in a non-ejection equipped aircraft for the majority of your career. All in perspective I guess.

Click to expand...

...and yet there was a T-6 ejection within the first month I was at Laughlin. Both crew members survived, but they had some serious back injuries. The student got back to training after several months of recovery. Ejection seats do save lives, but they are VERY violent. Back injuries are common, and complicating factors that could be fatal are nothing to scoff at.

I've lost several friends/acquaintances to aviation crashes, both military and GA, in the past 10 years.

Tex, I was reminded by a dear friend today, that during my son's six years out of USAFA, five of his friends, classmates, and acquaintances have perished in accidents. FIVE. in six years.

They have rules and regs for a reason, and while you may not think they are such a good idea, I'll bet those flying the planes are not always in the "This is BS" camp.

It now costs MILLIONS OF DOLLARS to train a pilot, whether a C5 Driver, or an upside-down-hair-on-fire wing-dinger, and there are physical pressures involved in flying all types of aircraft. Sorry if you can't meet the standards, but as in most everything, standards aren't usually arbitrary.

In addition, if you or someone else reading this, is thinking of a military career and going into thinking "these are stupid rules" or "what a load of monkey dung," well, maybe you should look elsewhere, because you are going to have YEARS of following the orders of someone who doesn't think those rules are there to make you annoyed.

In addition, if you or someone else reading this, is thinking of a military career and going into thinking "these are stupid rules" or "what a load of monkey dung," well, maybe you should look elsewhere, because you are going to have YEARS of following the orders of someone who doesn't think those rules are there to make you annoyed.

Click to expand...

This 1 million times, I am currently enlisted and even from the bottom of the totem pole there are rules and proceedures for almost every task completed wheather or not you work on the flightline, in an office, or in a clinic. One of the rules for even being in my enlisted careerfield is you cannot be claustriphobic, from the outside this rule seemed stupid, but it is there because of the suits we wear when doing emergency response and if you were claustriphobic you would run through your oxygen supply faster than if you were not.

Comming from someone in the military currently there are rules for everything from the top of the chain of command to the lowest airman in the unit but those rules are there for a reason.