What's your take on this article and the premise that midshipmen aren't the Best and Brightest

I stumbled across this article, written by a tenured English professor at the NA. He has been a critic of the NA for years (you can find many articles written by him, just google)

http://thefederalist.com/2017/10/16...-become-disneyland-politicians/#disqus_thread


My son will be attending the NA in 2019. He set his sights on attending roughly 4 years ago. He has an uncle who attended (my brother). His grandfather fought in the US Navy during WWII, was shot down by Japanese fire, survived and is a proud Navy veteran. (passed in 2014) I guess one might say it's "in his blood".

I am caught off guard by this article. I've always looked at the NA as being highly selective, but it seems this is not necessarily the case. Our oldest attends Notre Dame, and you'd be hard pressed to find a student who has a sub 1000 SAT score, or a B average in high school. I also never thought about the ROTC process and the fact that a vast number of those men and women are not the "best and the brightest" yet will be the same rank as my son once they begin their service. (a boy in our graduating class last year did not get into the NA - even though both parents are graduates. He was an average student, with average grades and test scores. He is currently at Nebraska, NROTC. Perhaps he has what it takes to be an officer in the Navy, but how can he be on the same playing field as an USNA graduate with regard to the rigor and training at the NA? )

My son is working his butt off and has accomplished much more than your "average" HS student. Attending the NA is his dream, but are we being sold a bill of goods with regard to the "aura" of the NA?

I'm curious to hear from current mids and recent graduates.

Search Bruce Fleming on these forums, and you'll get some background.
Personally, I think the guy serves a good purpose. It's an annual article from him.
Looking at any institution and blindly agreeing that its the best thing since sliced bread and has no flaws (and how dare you say anything bad about it) doesn't do anyone any good, in my opinion.

Sort of like blindly following orders. A lot of people have gone to prison for following orders. That's why we're taught to follow lawful orders.

USNA is and always should be, changing. It changes with the times, and changes to correct past flaws in order to satisfy the needs of The Navy. It isn't perfect and never will be, but perfection is what it strives for. If everyone says it's perfect, we'll start to believe it. If we believe that, then there's no impetus to try harder.

Good points.
I certainly don't think it's perfect. And I'm glad I came across Bruce Fleming because it gives me food for thought.

As with any college experience, it's what you make of it. Our freshman at ND is making the most of his time there and then some. His roommate, on the other hand, sleeps til 1pm, blows off classes and has his girlfriend help with his homework. He will likely graduate with a degree from ND by doing the bare minimum.

Obviously, one can't get away with those shenanigans at the NA, but I'm guessing they graduate mids who are borderline in their performance.

Bruce Fleming resurfaces periodically and every article he writes has the same general tone. He seems to enjoy the media spotlight rather than trying to objectively report something.

I noticed that. Recycled articles at best, going back to 2010

Do you think there's merit to what he is saying?

As already said, Fleming has written basically the same article for many years and it gets people spun up but his issues are largely not representative of the vast majority of the Naval Academy. He seems obsessed with SAT scores as a measure of intelligence and while it is a useful tool, it is not all-encompassing. Most if not the vast majority of high SAT candidates have either had SAT prep in their high school, through private tutors/classes or both. There are schools here in New Jersey where the AVERAGE SAT score is well over 1400. At the same time, the average SAT score from the public high school that I attended (single digit miles from one of the 1400+ schools) is in the mid 800s. It is often a function of prep by the school and there is a strong correlation with income level. Add to this the nominations that are offered to enlisted people from within the service. They might have fair or even poor SAT scores but they made it though an advanced technical school like Navy Nuclear Power School and proved their ability even though they have crappy SATs.
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Yes, some of the lower scoring applicants are recruited athletes which is a very small proportion of the brigade. In many cases though, they have other attributes such as leadership experience or have demonstrated unusual levels of maturity/perseverance.
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I'll end my post with this observation. Like many of my classmates who entered over 40 years ago, I will tell you that the level of the candidates now is such that I am not confident that I could get in at this point.

I would be happy to critique some of the general studies programs at other 'elite' universities.
There is a reason SAs are ranked so high annually by multiple independent services.

This guy is the master of anecdotes...

He neglects the vast majority of Service Academy graduates who serve honorably in our Military and continue to serve with distinction in their civilian lives later in order to re-run his never-changing narrative. His comparison of standardized test scores to the Ivys is inept. My guess is the majority of those admitted into Harvard and Brown do not captain their varsity sport(s), run a 12 minute 2-mile, and gut out 100 push-ups in 2 minutes.

This is his schtick; he's made quite the career for himself as cynic and critic.

Competition for the 1100 or so slots in each of our Service Academies is fierce as everyone on this forum knows. These kids are in fact among the very best and the very brightest.

Soldiergriz said:

This guy is the master of anecdotes...

He neglects the vast majority of Service Academy graduates who serve honorably in our Military and continue to serve with distinction in their civilian lives later in order to re-run his never-changing narrative. His comparison of standardized test scores to the Ivys is inept. My guess is the majority of those admitted into Harvard and Brown do not captain their varsity sport(s), run a 12 minute 2-mile, and gut out 100 push-ups in 2 minutes.

This is his schtick; he's made quite the career for himself as cynic and critic.

Competition for the 1100 or so slots in each of our Service Academies is fierce as everyone on this forum knows. These kids are in fact among the very best and the very brightest.

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My 2 cents on this having just experienced elite college application and decisions...elite schools do not have the best and brightest always either. I’ve been surprised, shocked even, at the kids that are recruited or through some admissions magic are admitted and attend elite schools. So no place has nothing but the best students, no place. But having experienced the type of kid I see working their tails off, and being willing to go extra to even try for the academies, well, they are in my book among the best and brightest. Some of whom choose the academy with perfect academic profiles, over the carefully polished brand names...my $.02.

I literally don't have enough hours in my day to point out every part where his arguments are off. I read his articles every time one surfaces. At the very base of his arguments, there is slight validity in certain cases. My recommendation is to take everything he says with a hefty spoonful of salt. The mids he describes exist but it's maybe 2 or 3 per class per company, not the norm.

It seems that the comments here are focused on Fleming, not Heffington. Fleming is the messenger, though he has found strong support in Heffington's report. Considering Heffington's background as a former cadet, 7 years as a West Point faculty and his love for West Point, his words are very powerful and persuasive.

^^Why?

Heffington is not special.

Fleming makes some valid points about admissions at the service academies. However his proposed solution, simply shutting them down rather than instituting reforms, is idiotic. Also, the "elite" universities, aren't without scandal either. For example, around 40% of Harvard students are legacies.

There might be some excess hype with the misleading single digit acceptance rates that the academies claim. That said, while they may not be perfect, as no institution is, they're still phenomenal schools.

My DS sat in his class, during a CVW last Fall. For what it's worth, Bruce was not on his soapbox that day.
I read a couple of Bruce's diatribes, and I too was incensed by a couple of his points.
Nevertheless, I will defend his right to make them.

If USNA wanted to fire him, they would. I don't believe that he has tenure (Not sure of that, though).
The fact that they don't (fire him), speaks volumes (at least to me) that they are fair in their assessment of his value as a professor, in spite of these annual re-hashed diatribes.

If you ask 50 Mids what they think of him, 25 will tell you they loathe him, and 25 will tell you that he's the best professor there.
I have never met the guy, but my DS said that he got the feeling that this man truly cares about the Mids he is teaching, and it's not "just a job" for him. Even though my DS is only 18 years old, I value his opinion in these matters and I like the fact that he has an open mind.
Okay, I had something to do with that, I know.

Saguaroman said:

It seems that the comments here are focused on Fleming, not Heffington. Fleming is the messenger, though he has found strong support in Heffington's report. Considering Heffington's background as a former cadet, 7 years as a West Point faculty and his love for West Point, his words are very powerful and persuasive.

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Okay then! I didn't read the article, because I saw "Bruce Fleming" in the byline, and made a wild assumption.
I will go back and read it later, with a glass of Lagavulin (to decrease the severity of my pissed-offness) in hand.

JP2019TP said:

He is currently at Nebraska, NROTC. Perhaps he has what it takes to be an officer in the Navy, but how can he be on the same playing field as an USNA graduate with regard to the rigor and training at the NA?

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USNA is definitely a great path to becoming an officer in the Navy and may have a few advantages over other paths, but don't sell NROTC short. In fact, getting a ROTC scholarship is nearly as competitive as getting into an SA and both SA's and ROTC programs do a good job of preparing young men and women to be officers. If you search this forum you'll find many posts about the various paths to becoming an officer and that once you are serving as an officer no one cares (or many times even knows) what path you took to get there - they care about performance.

I challenge the premise. I could probably accept @Soldiergriz's statement that they are among the best and brightest. In reality, "best and brightest" are undefined terms and everyone seems to have a different metric to justify their own position. Thus, debate is inevitable.

In the fleet, I have seen good and bad (less good) from every commissioning path.

JP2019TP said:

He is currently at Nebraska, NROTC. Perhaps he has what it takes to be an officer in the Navy, but how can he be on the same playing field as an USNA graduate with regard to the rigor and training at the NA? )

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This is absolutely the wrong mentality to come into this with. The military is a big machine, the Navy uses 3 different methods of accession to acquire its officers: the Naval Academy, ROTC, and OCS. Each has produced the best and worst officers. Having good grades and scores does not equate to being a good officer, it equates to being book smart. The Naval Academy is a prestigious institution because of its history and heritage, not because each of its graduates are better trained than those coming out of the other accession points.

Bruce Fleming is kind of infamous on campus. He is a notoriously tough grader and does lots of unorthodox behaviors during class times. He does have a few points but these issues apply to all colleges including the elite ones. Most students I talk to regard him either negatively or as a clown. I would not take his writing too seriously.

navydad21 said:

Bruce Fleming is kind of infamous on campus. He is a notoriously tough grader and does lots of unorthodox behaviors during class times. He does have a few points but these issues apply to all colleges including the elite ones. Most students I talk to regard him either negatively or as a clown. I would not take his writing too seriously.

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not infamous, rather, notorious.