Would like some perspective on USNA engineering program rigor

time2 said:

And you were able to do all of this while still in h.s.?

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The merit badge counselor program in Boy Scouts works this way. DS has worked with judges, city managers and planners, and two executive officers in addition to the teachers, lawyers, veterans and small business owners to earn his merit badges. When one of the first SERE instructors after WWII teaches orienteering, you tend to pay a little more attention!

I was referring to his statements about how businesses assess/promote employes and what it takes to be successful there.

Well, if he wants to go to the Service Academy that has the BEST engineering programs, he'll choose USMA! My DH graduated with an Engineering degree from USMA and then, while on active duty, got his Masters in Projects and Systems Management. After his military retirement, he put those degrees to good use, as a................middle school math teacher! Our DS is majoring in MechE/Aero at USMA and wants to branch aviation to fly helicopters and our DD is a senior in NROTC majoring in MechE. While she is doing well in her classes, she has already decided she does not want to be an engineer in the future. So I guess you never know what anybody will end up doing with those engineering degrees!

Patriot4Life said:

Scouting, I started Spring of my 5th grade. But many of the awards were achieved from the beginning of my 9th grade through now. I became an Eagle Scout when I just turned 14. Earned 46 Merit Badges. I was published in 2 newspapers at a young age. All the athletics I started since age 8. It is long dedication and truly enjoying what I do that paid off. The magic is in the cocktail. The combination of long term dedication and the real joy doing what you do.

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That list is quite humbling (shared it with my son and he was taken aback - now he knows the caliber he is competing against!). I'm on our District's Eagle BOR committee and I have sat through many Eagle Boards. Every once in a while we get a 14 year old but it's unusual. We are an inner-city district. The areas where I see the biggest difference between younger Eagles and older Eagles is Troop leadership roles (SPL before Eagle for older scouts, for example) and typically more comprehensive, time-challenging service projects. Not in any way diminishing your Eagle path or project - just the opposite. Getting it done early is a great accomplishment. Your other accomplishments just amaze me (and my son).

NYLT is big in our Council (we are the second biggest council by members in the US, spanning 6 congressional districts and 2 states). Most troops send one candidate per year to NYLT for week-long leadership training. From that group, a few are hand-picked by the incoming NYLT SPLs (our Council has 4 one-week sessions in the summer) for staff the following year. The youth NYLT staff run the program (basically its Woodbadge for youth leaders). It amazes me what the youth staff do in terms of teaching leadership skills (and living the Scout Oath and Law "fiercely", as they say). Seems like there are two or three SA appointments who served as senior staff (ASPL, SLP) every year. Most senior staff are 17, 18, Eagles, and 2-3 years of NYLT junior staffing. Probably shows long-term commitment and leadership, I guess. Not sure if this is just our Council or other Councils. I'm surprised NYLT is not brought up that much on the the forums (as I have skimmed them).

Patriot4Life said:

I have an LOA from USNA and Appointment from USCGA in Early Action. Once I get my nominations I hope to hear from USMA and USAFA. I will choose a Service in late March and proudly serve my country. And I know I will truly enjoy the service in the military!

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@Patriot4Life Are you still around? Which academy have you decided to attend?

My classmates (USAFA) with PhD’s in engineering who taught at USAFA that have retired and now teach at pretty elite engineering schools will tell you that if deep dive engineering is your goal - the SAs don’t have the time. A project they might assign in ‘normal college’ that would take 40 hours has to be designed to take 20 or fewer hours at an SA because of all the other demands placed on the student.

However, my classmates that went to MIT, Purdue, CalTech etc for advanced degrees didn’t struggle in graduate school because they had less hands on lab time than their graduate school peers.

These are people that are at least 2 levels above really smart and they can figure it out because (a) they are brilliant (b) driven (c) have a thirst for mental challenges.

I have a sister that went to a no where special undergraduate school who went on to a prestigious medical school and teaches and does research at Harvard. I have a daughter at USNA who finds it academically easy.

Most rankings of elite colleges are really based on their graduate schools not their undergraduate programs.

If you have spent time around people that are brilliant - (I am not, but I have) their minds operate differently, they just ‘get things’ and ‘see things’ thru a different prism.

Is USNA’s engineering program better than MITs? In the end - no hiring manager cares - they know they are both excellent programs.

Zeus said:

@Patriot4Life Are you still around? Which academy have you decided to attend?

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Last Seen : January 9, 2018.

Cerberi said:

Is USNA’s engineering program better than MITs? In the end - no hiring manager cares - they know they are both excellent programs.

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I have come to conclude (through this discussion and others) that USNA and USAFA do a fine job with undergraduate engineering. But as someone who does hire engineers, this statement needs qualification. It all depends on what you are looking for in the engineering candidate. There would be plenty of circumstances where an MIT (CSM, Purdue, CalTech, RPI, MTU, etc.) graduate would bring more to the table for a particular hiring need. Not all hires are made looking for leadership etc. Sometimes we are hiring because we really need that special something that only comes from grads at specialty schools. Really good ice cream comes in many different flavors and sometimes you just need chocolate mint chip.

THParent said:

Zeus said:

@Patriot4Life Are you still around? Which academy have you decided to attend?

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Last Seen : January 9, 2018.

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I am aware of that. I was just trying to reach the young lad who seems to know a lot about admissions to every SA and see if we will hear from him again. Who knows, he is so smart and has so much life experience already, maybe he is abducted by aliens to attend their space academy?

falconchic88 said:

ders_dad,
All three of my USNA kids majored in engineering. 2014er was a mechE major, the other two are Ocean Engineering majors. They all three had several civilian instructors that had previously taught at other universities, many of them top tier engineering schools. They all seemed to indicate the caliber of courses were on par with those schools. My MechE's capstone project was done in conjunction with engineering students from Notre Dame. My 2016 Ocean Engineering major is now a Civil Engineer Officer. My now M2C is hoping to go Nuke Subs and is most likely going to do some grad work before she even graduates USNA. Prior to graduating, engineering majors are given the opportunity to take the FE/EIT exam.

I think you see more USAFA grads going into "engineering" career fields because USNA wants its grads to go into unrestricted line jobs if medically qualified (tip of the spear operational communities), USAFA doesn't do this. USAFA grads can service select support career fields out of the Academy. So USAFA grads can go right into Civil Engineering or Developmental Engineering, or Acquisitions. My daughter is only in CEC because she DOR'd from pilot training and was re-designated into CEC.

Service Academy Grads, be it Navy or Air Force (my husband and I are USAFA grads, hubby was a Mech E major) are very sought after if they decide to leave the military and pursue a civilian career, not just because of the top tier education they receive, but also because of the leadership training, EXPERIENCE in project management, and opportunities to supervise they receive through their military service.

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As a Civil Engineer Corps officer, we practice engineering/project management straight out of college, whether it be with civilian contractors or Navy Seabees. Very rarely would we ever design anything. We manage some cutting edge projects, but as with other Naval officers, our emphasis is on leadership at just about every level vice technical engineering knowledge. Plus, as stated before, you've got about a 5 out of 1000 chance of getting NPQ'ed and getting into the CEC directly from the Academy.