I need some wisdom....

23Lt

Member
Joined
Sep 24, 2016
Messages
284
Imagine this scenario:

We have two brand new AD Army 2d Lts. Both branched Aviation, both got 4 year degrees in Civil Engineering, minors in Spanish, and both commissioned the same day. They are identical in every aspect EXCEPT one graduated from USMA, and one graduated from Army ROTC.


Putting aside tuition, and ROTC vs USMA lifestyles, what is the advantage of being a USMA grad? Or is there even one? What is the difference between these two (beside where they commissioned from)


thanks,
23Lt




PS I found no other thread about this
 
Given that you have one of both, I'd think you'd be in the best position to answer this question. No? If your Lts don't see a difference, I'd say there is none.
 
Absolutely none.

Once you show up at Ft. Rucker the instructors will care less where or how you received your commission. You will simply be another student in flight school. As far as when you report to your first unit after flight school, it will again not matter.
 
As I tell the USNA mids we sponsor, and am seconded by my USNA grad DH, no one cares about the source of your commission, as long as you deliver performance, performance, performance.

Very generally, the SA grads usually have a better professional military edge immediately after commissioning, given their 4 years of immersion and their daily exposure to military routine, culture, experiences and a wide variety of officers and enlisted leaders from various backgrounds.

Again very generally, ROTC grads tend to have a better grasp of life skills such as living in apartments, dealing with rent and bills, “civilian life stuff.” They very quickly catch up in the military stuff.

ROTC and OCS/OTS grads bring just as many smarts, drive and leadership ability to the table, and the diversity of commissioning backgrounds ensures a powerful basis for cross-pollination of innovation and ideas.

Every CO, regardless of commissioning source, will talk about crappy JOs, and they come from every source. Ditto great JOs.

SA grads do have that unique and powerful school, class and cross-SA bond, which is lifelong, and is a great resource for mentorship and for career-building in and out of the military. The SAs have the Service Academy Career Conference (SACC) - google it - which is an unparalleled career transition tool. Your ROTC son will have plenty of resources when he transitions, never fear, just not SACC. I have good friends from my college days, but more powerful bonds with my OCS classmates. We all went to work for the same “company,” similar to SA grads.

Which son is senior? This is a fun question, which they are probably clueless about. At this stage of their careers, it’s administrivia. I am sure the Army assigns some kind of precedence number to everyone commissioned on the same day. In the Navy, my “lineal number” was assigned based on my commissioning date and my OCS class standing. The lower the number, the higher my precedence, or seniority, compared to other officers of the same rank. I was commissioned in January at OCS. My lineal number was lower, hence I was senior, to all Navy ensigns commissioned at USNA, NROTC, OCS or other direct commission programs after that date, and senior to those who ranked lower than I in my OCS class. At USNA, the lineal numbers are assigned from top of class down. If USNA and NROTC are commissioned same day, I’m betting lineal numbers for NROTC are assigned after last USNA number. This doesn’t amount to a hill of beans for officers in the same grade until years later. In the Navy, if you have two ship’s COs, same rank, nested abreast at the pier, the CO with the lower lineal number, the technical senior, will rate the more desirable inboard berth! They could be 1 number apart. As I said, administrivia, though it could come into play for promotions way way down the road, when lines are drawn for promotion zones with a rank.
 
Last edited:
What VelveteenR said. It’s been written many times in this forum that, somewhere around the 3-6 month mark, whatever differences there might have been, cease to exist. It’s each officer for himself/herself, and pedigree neither predicts not ensures any level of success. You have a front-row seat to this phenomenon.
 
Well, most SA grads do have that big fancy door knocker on their hands too. DS is an ROTC grad and has been AD for about 14 months and can confirm all 2LTs are treaded the same. Poorly!
 
Well, most SA grads do have that big fancy door knocker on their hands too. DS is an ROTC grad and has been AD for about 14 months and can confirm all 2LTs are treaded the same. Poorly!

Some of the SMC and Maritime state colleges have pretty darn big rings too!

Most SA grads are aware of some of the negative stereotypes - that guy/gal know it all with the big honkin’ ring who tells Academy stories non-stop - and simply hunker down and do their job. There are stereotypical ROTC and OCS/OTS stories too...
 
As I said, administrivia, though it could come into play for promotions way way down the road, when lines are drawn for promotion zones with a rank.


Ive heard it is easier for SA grads to promote to o-6, O-7, O-8, etc. I have always thought it came down to performance as an officer and less about commissioning sources....
 
Who knows what the real truth of what that is...20 years down the road, the landscape will still be ever-changing. The “bubba” elements have loosened over the years. There’s no sense in looking at percentages from each source in the upper ranks right now as a predictor for future.

Promotion to 0-1 and 0-2 is fog-a-mirror - CO recommends you, you are sat in all respects including PRT/PFT/whatever, you’re good to go. For Major/LCDR, the serious competition has begun, and winnowing commences.
 
Well, when they are out of the service, that West Point diploma will open doors and carry plenty of weight in the employment world. There are plenty of colleges that would do the same but as far as I'm concerned, they don't carry the honor on top of it.
 
I certainly agree with that - for those employers who know or care about SA diplomas, military experience and values.
 
As I said, administrivia, though it could come into play for promotions way way down the road, when lines are drawn for promotion zones with a rank.


Ive heard it is easier for SA grads to promote to o-6, O-7, O-8, etc. I have always thought it came down to performance as an officer and less about commissioning sources....


O-6, o-7, 08? Are you kidding?

There is a Library of Congress amount of memes about meddlesome military parents. In fact, there is a thread on this forum. I suggest you read and get back to us. Truth be told, I was one of the those but when I asked I was completely and admittedly uninformed. This forum straighten me out, so I suggest listening to the advice, most of which will be to back off and enjoy your DS's success.

Listen to @Jcleppe.

Real life.

My DS, AROTC O-2 Signal, posted a picture of himself at some such affair in Middle East with everyone wearing their bowties. One of the O-2's had gold brocade. I asked him why one O-2 was wearing the brocade. His answer was that the said O-2 was WPer from California, as was the O-7. DS (always looking for the smoothest route) told me he tried to get the same position, but he wasn't broken up about it since all the kid did was arrange hotels and transportation.

He would not trade his position today for anyone's.
 
Last edited:
Ah, wearing “the loop,” or aide’s aiguillettes.

Just to balance the comments on the flag/general officer personal aide jobs, yes, the nature of the job tends to be logistics detail weenie in nature, but the massive payback is a bird’s-eye view of how things really get done at senior ranks, meeting influential career mentors, and having a very senior officer or official sign the performance evaluation. These are usually nominative jobs, meaning CO’s recommendations are required, the performance record to date must be pack-plus, military appearance impeccable, manner polished, attention to detail a plus, and interviews are usually required.

Many senior officers today, all Services, have been loopers. The President’s military aides wear their loops on their right shoulder as a distinguishing mark. The number of loops is related to the number of stars of the principal. At junior ranks, it is indeed a bag drag job at times. In most cases, it’s a career shiny spot, because it’s competitive to get - BUT - the vast majority of officers do not serve in an aide position during their careers and do just fine.

The smart GO/FO chooses someone he or she feels compatible with, and regardless of commissioning source. Of course, if they both played the same sport and were in the same company at different times at USMA or already knew each other from somewhere, those lash-ups will occur.

I wore loops as both a LCDR (O-4) and O-6. Eye-opening experiences. And... bag drags through foreign airports at ungodly hours, traveling constantly, calling for the admiral’s driver, waiting for delayed meetings with even more senior people, standing for endless periods of time while principals at the table went late, sweating logistics screw-ups, trouble-shooting everything on the fly ... bonding with other aides, learning about career-boosting opportunities ahead of my peers, being asked to come and work for other senior officers, seeing what the most powerful performance evaluations should say, gaining insights into how senior leaders handle crises and challenging peers and subordinates.

Your DS will have opportunities later on if that’s the right thing for him to do. He’s doing what he needs to do right now, learning his trade as a JO.
 
I wore loops as both a LCDR (O-4) and O-6. Eye-opening experiences. And... bag drags through foreign airports at ungodly hours, traveling constantly, calling for the admiral’s driver, waiting for delayed meetings with even more senior people, standing for endless periods of time while principals at the table went late, sweating logistics screw-ups, trouble-shooting everything on the fly ... bonding with other aides, learning about career-boosting opportunities ahead of my peers, being asked to come and work for other senior officers, seeing what the most powerful performance evaluations should say, gaining insights into how senior leaders handle crises and challenging peers and subordinates.

Capt,

I appreciate your service and your valuable advice to future and present mids/cadets and parents. It has always seemed sound and particuarly relevant to relationships with enlisted personnel.

However, this whole paragraph kind of rubs me the wrong way as does some of the feedback I get from my DS. BTW, he couldn't be happier and fulfilled at present.

One has to ask why an O-4 or O-5 is dragging a bag through an airport in service of an O-7+, rather than an E-4. I hope to high heaven it was your own bag and not the O-6's. I know academics and business executives who travel the world delivering consequential papers and consummating business transactions who travel alone without an entourage and book their own ubers.

Again, I mean no disrespect to you. I simply question what in fact are the "needs of the military" and if there isn't a certain amount of log rolling which has resulted in dead weight at the top and determination to "get what's mine" at the lower ranks.

Simply put, this is the major reason why my DS will probably not complete 20 years .
 
As I said, administrivia, though it could come into play for promotions way way down the road, when lines are drawn for promotion zones with a rank.


Ive heard it is easier for SA grads to promote to o-6, O-7, O-8, etc. I have always thought it came down to performance as an officer and less about commissioning sources....


O-6, o-7, 08? Are you kidding?

There is a Library of Congress amount of memes about meddlesome military parents. In fact, there is a thread on this forum. I suggest you read and get back to us. Truth be told, I was one of the those but when I asked I was completely and admittedly uninformed. This forum straighten me out, so I suggest listening to the advice, most of which will be to back off and enjoy your DS's success.

Listen to @Jcleppe.

Real life.

My DS, AROTC O-2 Signal, posted a picture of himself at some such affair in Middle East with everyone wearing their bowties. One of the O-2's had gold brocade. I asked him why one O-2 was wearing the brocade. His answer was that the said O-2 was WPer from California, as was the O-7. DS (always looking for the smoothest route) told me he tried to get the same position, but he wasn't broken up about it since all the kid did was arrange hotels and transportation.

He would not trade his position today for anyone's.


Im not a parent if thats what you were asking. Just curious.
 
Capt,

I appreciate your service and your valuable advice to future and present mids/cadets and parents. It has always seemed sound and particuarly relevant to relationships with enlisted personnel.

However, this whole paragraph kind of rubs me the wrong way as does some of the feedback I get from my DS. BTW, he couldn't be happier and fulfilled at present.

One has to ask why an O-4 or O-5 is dragging a bag through an airport in service of an O-7+, rather than an E-4. I hope to high heaven it was your own bag and not the O-6's. I know academics and business executives who travel the world delivering consequential papers and consummating business transactions who travel alone without an entourage and book their own ubers.

Again, I mean no disrespect to you. I simply question what in fact are the "needs of the military" and if there isn't a certain amount of log rolling which has resulted in dead weight at the top and determination to "get what's mine" at the lower ranks.

Simply put, this is the major reason why my DS will probably not complete 20 years .

Interesting perspective, and I can see why the military aide thing can seem oddly anachronistic. The military is its own world, with both good things and bad things, like any organization.

Bag drag - general term for an intense trip marked by numerous airport traverses, as in “that last swing through PAC Fleet from Pearl to Okinawa to Yokusuka to Sasebo to San Diego was a real bag drag.”
 
Couple of points... if I recall correctly there was a recent article about the AF being so short of officers 0-4 is all but guaranteed unless you screw up in a big way. Also while I know it is the norm it seems silly and a waste to have a highly qualified and educated o-4 or above be an aid. This could easily be handled by a SNCO or JO.
 
Couple of points... if I recall correctly there was a recent article about the AF being so short of officers 0-4 is all but guaranteed unless you screw up in a big way. Also while I know it is the norm it seems silly and a waste to have a highly qualified and educated o-4 or above be an aid. This could easily be handled by a SNCO or JO.
Possibly because a senior NCO has mission critical issues to tend to and a junior officer has too much yet to learn to become a more senior officer than to spend his time observing policy at that level. A couple of these posts sound like elitism run amok. Never met a flag rank officer worth his salt that wouldn't or couldn't carry his own seabag or hammock. [emoji3]
 
Last edited:
Couple of points... if I recall correctly there was a recent article about the AF being so short of officers 0-4 is all but guaranteed unless you screw up in a big way. Also while I know it is the norm it seems silly and a waste to have a highly qualified and educated o-4 or above be an aid. This could easily be handled by a SNCO or JO.
Add to the fact that if I was at the O7 - O9 level, I would prefer an Aide that was well enough versed and senior enough to carry on my duties in the event of an issue rendering me incapacitated until another could take over in my absence.
 
Back
Top