Dream job... CIA agent

wannabe2013 said:

I don't think you could do paramilitary at 52 and its not really a cake-walk being allowed to do 30 years in the military. They kick you out if you don't get promoted and 30 years would put you up in the 3- 4-star range (i.e. VERY competitive). However, you can retire after 20 years with half-pay and you would only be 43-ish and in the O-5 O-6 range.

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Uh...not quite.

If you do 20 years, you'll "most likely" be a jr Lt Col. To make Colonel (0-6) will take you, if you're QUICK and LUCKY, about 18 years minimum. You would have to serve 3 years in grade to be able to retire as a Colonel with pay.

30 years is ONLY available to officers in the grade of Colonel or above. Lt Col's are limited to 28 years by law, Major's to 24 years. Again, that's the "maximum" allowed time; the AF can limit it and often does; especially for Majors.

Just FYI.

Steve

USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
(my classmates are mostly Colonel's now, but we have about 12 BGen's)

To even stress more on fliegers post. We have 3 friends that just retired at 20, it was mandatory because they were passed over 2 times for LTC. These guys flew fighters in the Gulf I and II. They thought that because they were pilots that they did not need to be bothered with doing PME, a staff or getting their masters, all that mattered to them was they flew for 20 yrs. Now for the rest of their life they will make @ 12K a yr less than Bullet who retired at 20 as an LTC. Bullet got his masters, did correspondence ACSC, in residence CGSC(Army ACSC) and AWC. He stepped out of the jet and flew a desk at the Pentagon.

Not only does it stink to have 12K less at retirement, but for your last 4 yrs you are capped at Major pay, while your peers get LTC pay, and to make matters worse you have to salute them. These are people you have known for yrs. They now get better jobs, because they are still deemed promotable. (SIC) while you remain an ADO in the squadron. It is also a bitter pill to swallow on promotion night for LTCs each yr when now people below you are passing you by.

BTW 1 of them was an acad grad of 1986, played football for them! So don't buy into the urban legend that all AFA grads make it to at least LTC. Graduating from the AFA opens many doors, what you do during your career will determine how many more will open for you!


There are things called SERB (Selective Early Retirement Board), passed over 2x and you will probably meet it.

Now for the rest of their life they will make @ 12K a yr less than Bullet who retired at 20 as an LTC

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Pima - just to clarify:
Isn't the AD difference between O-4 and O-5 be $12,000/year so wouldn't the retirement pay difference be about $6000/yr?

Just_A_Mom said:

Pima - just to clarify:
Isn't the AD difference between O-4 and O-5 be $12,000/year so wouldn't the retirement pay difference be about $6000/yr?

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For those members of the AF that entered in 1986 or later, there's actually a fairly complicated matrix you have to go through to determine your final retirement pay. It's not simply taking the pay as above and halving it.

That being said, I can echo Pima's comments VERY loud and clear!

I "served" as a member of the retirement team of a friend of mine. We flew during quite a few of the "pre Gulf War 1" actions, as well as GW1, Kosovo/Bosnia, Deny Flight, etc...etc...and GW2 in 2003.

We have the same medals, awards, etc...etc...we look like French Field Marshal's in uniform!

That being said...I did the staff thing, ALL PME including Air War College, 2 masters' degrees, etc...etc...

His answer was: "I have all the medals, combat time out the butt, etc...etc...if that's not good enough to be promoted, then ***w them!"

We met the same Lt Col selection board: I made it, he did not. He was given a separation/retirement date of about 7 months later! He's an airline pilot, was on furlough, and planned on going until 24 years if he wasn't selected for Lt Col.

The AF said: "No promotion...no 24 years, we're separating non-selects immediately." He was fortunate: he had prior service time and ended up with his 20 years. BUT...what if he didn't have that time??

Think about it...make Major after 11 years...come up for Lt Col at the 15 year point, DON'T get selected, meet the next board: non-select...that's at the 16 1/2 year point. If they then give you a separation date: you do NOT get your 20 years!

Instead you get a nice shiny Meritorious Service Medal, and a nice "Honorable Discharge" certificate for your service.

And if you think that can't/won't happen...I just lost an AF officer in my reserve unit for this very reason. Only he had 17 years, 11 months, and 3 weeks of service on his separation date. He missed the "sanctuary" of 18 years which will allow you to continue to 20 years.

If you are twice deferred and are within 2 years of 20, then the law allows you to continue to 20 years. BUT if you are NOT that close...you're shown the gate.

So the bottom line to my other officers was this: do NOT count on making it to 20 years as a major. We all know what it takes to be competitive for Lt Col...it's "your" choice whether or not to go after it.

And the extra $$'s are very nice! For me retiring as a reservist, it'll mean over $7,000 difference in pay but the retirement calculator for reservists is TOTALLY wierd compared to active duty!

I do believe the AF went back to the 50, plus 2.5% again and no longer do the top three, which is why it is confusing to figure out.

The reason it comes out differently is that they take your last 3 yrs. Also since LTC can stay past 20, they get 2.5% for ea yr. It is unusual for somebody to retire at exactly 20 because you may owe a commitment from PCSing. Bullet put in his papers at exactly 20 yrs, but he could not retire until June 21 since he owed 3 yrs for Pcsing, knowing that his DOR was Oct. 1. and including the selling back of his leave, his actual retirement dat would be Sept 21, thus it made sense to stay until August to get the 2.5%,( we had to stay until Aug, because come Sept 30 they only allow you to carry over 60 days of leave.) Bullet also didn't mind because he worked about 1 day a week for the entire summer to burn through 30 days of leave. And the day he worked was flying. our friend who did not make LTC was required to go at the DOR for 20 even though he still owed time for PCSing the AF didn't care. That is why there is a 12K difference. We get 52.5% of the highest 3, he gets 50% of his highest 3.

I also have known squadron commanders, and he is now a vice wing that made the passed over Majors write a one page paper explaining why he did not get selected for LTC and then the commander posted it in the squadron bathrooms so everyone could see it ...nice huh?

Also when it comes to job hunting and you want to stay in the defense world it is hard for these people, since most contractor companies like Boeing, Pratt, Lockheed, SAIC, Booze, etc want the LTC, let's face it the LTC proved that the AF saw something in them more than the major. Our friend who retired at the exact same time as Bullet, just got hired as a sim instructor. Bullet had 2 jobs lined up before he retired. Due to the fact that he has a non compete clause he had to wait until his terminal leave was over. On Oct. 2 he was able to go to work and it was seemless. Our friends waited 9 months living on only retirement pay which was about 2800 per month, while they had kids going to college with no scholarships.

Pima - your point is well taken, that is to make the highest salary that you can at the end of your career to maximize your retirement pay.
the retirement is basically 2.5% x # years x salary - this is basically 1/2 of your salary at 20 years.

Look at this pay chart:
http://usmilitary.about.com/od/fy2009paycharts/a/bpayoffmore.-uVP.htm

an O-4 at retirement will make about $40000 in retirement. 6723.3 per month *12= 80,679/2=$40,339.
an O-5 at 20 years will make about 46,000 in retirement. 7697.4 per month * 12 = 92,368.8/2 = 46,184.4
even 52.5% of 92,368 is only about $48,000 or an $8000 increase

Even considering other options etc I don't see how the difference will ever be $12,000 per year in retirement. The $6,000 or $8,000 difference is quite significant - however.

Of course, the military retirement system may be completely overhauled by the time this class gets around to retiring.

You don't have top three.....the last three years are averaged. 6700 + 6500 + 6300 /3 = 6500 x .50 =3250 x12= $39000

Someone with final pay 6700 x .525= 3517 x12 = 42210


There are prior enlisted who are passed over for major that can have a year of capt's pay under top 3. 6700 + 6500 + 5800/3 =6330 x .50=
3165 x12 =37980 VERY RARE but promotion boards have been very quick lately.

Also if you retire before a pay raise this also can explain the difference in retirement pay.

JAM Just A Wife is correct, your pay calculation was incorrect, Bullet does make 3743 a month in retirement pay. Also if you are forced to retired Dec 30th, you get your pay raise under retirement pay and not AD which is about a 1-2% difference(AD gets a pay raise of 1% over COLA, retirees get 1% below COLA)..we also only get paid 1x a month, compared to 2x, and if the 1st falls on the weekend we do not get paid until Monday, unlike AD where they are paid on Friday. Also your retirement pay is taxable not only federally, but also in the state.

In the end the point is moot. Either way you roll it, if you retire at 42 yrs old and live until 82, that is 40 yrs of pay your are losing, and the reason why is because you didn't want to step out of the cockpit or waste your time getting a Masters and PME. Also, again the other issue is unless you are going to be flying for the airlines, you will also not be as competitive as those who were promoted over you, and thus, not be hired as quickly or at the highest starting salary. Just because they hire you doesn't mean you are at the same starting salary. The little known rule is they hire you at the difference of what you would have been making as an AD officer. Thus, if you retire as an LTC you will be making more as a sim instructor than the guy who retired as a major. At least this is true for Boeing and the Strike. We know 2 that retired as LTCs and work along side with 2 as Maj. The Majors are making with retirement what they made as AD. Same is true for the LTCs. It is different for Beltway Bandits when it comes to pay, but your ret rank does play into the equation on how quickly you are hired and how much they offer you. Your rank will effect you even after you retire when it comes to starting your second career. You will be forced to explain why you were passed over, and that typically is difficult to do with a logical reason to relieve the prospective employer. One of our friends that was forced to retire as a major, had a viable excuse, he started in the Navy and crossed over after 8 yrs, which hurt him in competing against others. He did not have SOS because he was in the Navy, which meant he wasn't competitive for in residence ACSC, from there he kept getting behind the 8 ball and could never come back from it.

Forgot to add, it doesn't matter if it is overhauled, you will retire under the program you came in on. In 1996 or 1997 they revised it again, there was a lot of grief because there are some that are under the flat 50, some with the High 3 and some with the Top 3. It all depends on what year you were commissioned. It is similiar to pilot commitments, some came in under 7 yrs, then the next yr group they bumped it up to 8 , then a yr later it was bumped to 10, and then they brought it back to 8. Those under the 10 yr commitment were forced to honor that and not lower it to 8

My pay calculation may not be correct - I was just trying to simplfy it - and not get tied up in the top three.
Justawife is still not showing a $12,000 difference. Even with Bullet making $45000 on retiring that isn't close to $12,000 more than Justawife's O-4 at $38,000.
That would be a $7000/year difference; and that is assuming a retiring major has a year of captain's pay included, which would not happen out of the academy (probably).

of course, not all retired officer want to be a beltway bandit. there are other careers. My dad taught school for 17 years after retiring 35 years ago, got his summers off and with two pensions and social security makes nearly $80,000.
His children will never have to worry about his finances or medical care.

You are right, about the beltway and in honesty we are the only ones that became a beltway bandit out of 7 that retired last yr. The rest remained at Seymour and either became airline pilots or work for Boeing as a sim instructor. The military has the troop to teacher program which in my opinion is not used enough. It may be more popular in other branches, or positions, but because many officers at the LTC level have very specific experience related to jets they are heavily recruited by defense companies. Bullet was on the fence about retiring or staying, approx 1 yr prior to retiring (3 mos before he put in his papers) colleagues from previous bases that had already retired started contacting him about coming over to the dark side. With the fact that he had jobs lined up prior to putting papers in and made the transition smooth. He was lucky enough to have 2 companies vie for him, 1 for the 22 1 for the 35 and he could get more money. Our friends that were passed over 2x, were given a few months to get it together. They found out in Dec, and were forced out by Mar 1. because of his DOR None of them went straight to work, it took them months to find a job and they were never able to double dip, they also weren't able to get to 90 days of leave since you can only carry over 60

It funny here in DC, a lot of companies still don't pay you what you are worth. They figure if you have a retirement from the military you will be happy with 100K. I know that my husband was offered a job with Lockheed martin that was 35K below market and booze offered also 25K below market. A retired 0-6 market here in DC is 135-160K.

TAP classes for senior leaders were great, they have the spouse come and talk with TAP leader. They explained market conditions. Beltway bandits are paid well but it is expensive to live in the DC area.

Bullet is with L-3 comm and as a ret O-5 is in the range that you have for O-6. He never interviewed with Booze because we knew too many people that hated working for them, since they expect 12 hr days everyday. He also didn't go Lockheed because we heard the same thing about them too.
L-3 Com is the best company ever. They get that the Pentagon people are their rainmakers and treat them that way. Bullet won some civilian of the quarter award and the next day FedEX showed up at the door with a $250 Amex gift certificate from them. The Christmas party was at The Ritz and the door prizes were weekend getaways to Green Briar, Wii and XBOX systems, of course we didn't win ! Also the insurance plan is amazing. We pay less for it then Tri-Care and have no co-pay and no referrals, so I can go to any speciality doc I want without seeing a myriad of other docs to get to their pre-determined doc. Plus they throw in vision for free. DD got a yr of contacts and it cost us nothing.

The one thing I would stress to anybody thinking about the DC area for jobs, yes they are plentiful, but it is not what you know it is absolutely about who you know. It is tough to break into the beltway if you do not have any connections.

For AD people many military members see the Pentagon assignment worse than a remote. Trust me, it isn't. Will you have long days? YES, expect your duty day to start at 7 and end around 5 (at least for AF) However, the connections you make will help your future career. When Bullet retired we knew people trying to get jobs up here, but they couldn't. The reason why was they had no "in", since they never worked at the Pentagon, their connections were really tied to the jet, and that leaves only 2 options. One: Pilot for airlines. TWO: Sim instructor.
I am not slamming either, I am just saying the Pentagon should never be dreaded. Also the beauty of this assignment is where else in the world can ou go to that has so many free things to do? It might cost alot to live here, but at least entertainment is cheap!

GREAT LINK TPG..however it did give me vivid memories of the forced outprocessing briefing about pay (esp. the disability portion anf how they determine it!). The finance rep going through the pay, the VA disability pay portion and then SBP. I finally turned to him and said Bullet and you set this up, correct? YES, MAM, fine where do I sign?

That's exactly what I did...basically said I don't care, just tell me how much will we get. Then of course fincance screwed up by 3K a month for the first 2 months since they inputed it wrong. Yep, thats right we got only 750 a month.

Joining the CIA, one continues service to their country. This is not true for a “beltway bandit”. They “serve” their company. No matter what company, product, or service, there will eventually come a time that the goals of the company differ than the needs of the military service to which they are serving. Some find this unpalatable.

Also, in defense contracting one’s “hireability” is inversely proportional to the time since retirement. Their knowledge and expertise becomes dated. Since many are hired to fulfill finite contracts, subsequent employment may become more difficult.

It should probably be looked at as a necessary evil. Some can cope. Some cannot. There is a lot to be said for a second career totally away from defense contracting. They may, as Pima pointed out, be more difficult to obtain, but, depending on one's individual temperament, be more palatable over the long haul.

Step into the Pentagon....you'll have uniformed members of the military, civilian employees (both career and political) and finally you will have MANY MANY contractors.

CIA isn't a beltway bandit, however, I don't pretend to believe that each agency sees it completely as a "team" effort, especially when it comes to budgets.

come a time that the goals of the company differ than the needs of the military service to which they are serving

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I think that is truly based on the defense contracting company. L-3 comm has no bone in the fight over the 35 except to provide a contractor. Bullet does not state from L-3 comms point when he does his briefings. The same could be said for Booze and SAIC. They are basically the military counterpart on the corporate side (outsourcing). For example, go to many military bases, they now have contracted doctors, the salary is set, their position is set, their job is to be a doc. that's it, they do not get involved with the beauracracy of the military. I do follow your point when it comes to Lockheed and partially Raytheon because they do have a bone in the fight.

I've read a number of responses to the OP, and have to agree with the idea that while looking at future options is always wise, going into USxA should really be for the purpose of doing a full career in the military.

This topic hits close to home. I went into USNA wanting to do a Naval career. For reasons I have already documented here, I was not able to do my desired Service Selection. That really hurt, and I ended up five-and-diving from SWO.

Coming out of the Navy, I also applied to CIA. I made it through to what is apparently the last or second-to-last hurdle before acceptance, but was rejected for any one of a half-dozen reasons I could give you that would be valid (while I didn't think so at the time, I see them now, which just proves they were right all along).

CIA is a fascinating career. I know a number of spooks, some of which are classmates. BTW, the title is "CIA Case Officer", not "Agent". "Agent" is the guy you recruit to spy on HIS country or outfit.

You have a long way to go, but let me give you this tidbit of advice from someone with not a lot of inside information, but with more than the average Joe:

1) The CIA is even more selective than USxA. They have to be, and they can afford to be. They receive tens of thousands of applications every year. Their selection criteria go far beyond the academic; they are heavy into the psychological and emotional, and for good reason.

2) Contrary to what you might think, those inside the CIA don't think there is anything whiz-bang about their jobs. Sure, it's not your average corporate 9-5 daily slog, but it ain't James Bond, either, and many, many applicants are rejected because they think they can be cowboys and CIA Officers. The CIA doesn't need cowboys, and if they want some high-speed, low-drag types, there's lots of those available coming out of places like SEALs, Delta, and the like.

3) The life of a CIA Officer isn't all champagne, caviar, hot cars, and hotter women. In fact, it's none of that. Sometimes it involves squatting down in the middle of the Sahara, eating food you can't even pronounce, and sleeping with one eye open, and even then that's only of your job entails that.

4) Remember how I said that the CIA doesn't need cowboys? Well, they don't need cocky know-it-alls, either. They don't need extroverts who like to be the center of attention. They need arrogant pricks like they need another Aldrich Ames. I fear that this is the prime cause for my having been rejected; I was horribly arrogant in my younger days, and I really had no reason to be. Still, after many years of regrets and reflectn, I feel that I probably wouldn't have made a very good spook, anyway. A good SEAL, yes (laziness notwithstanding), but a good spook? Nope. I see things in absolutes. That's good in some cases, but not at Langley.

Anyway, if you are still interested, here are some books you may wish to read:

Class 11: Inside the CIA's First Post-9/11 Spy Class

Spycraft: The Secret History of the CIA's Spytechs, from Communism to al-Qaeda

Inside the CIA (This one may be a bit dated, but it's interesting nonetheless.)

There are tons of others, too. Some of them will leave you agog with wonder. Others will make you want to break into Leavenworth just to get 30 seconds alone with the likes of Aldrich Ames or John Walker. Others will make you wonder why we don't just nuke Langley and start over. If you think CIA isn't politicized, and in a shockingly surprising direction (hint, it ain't the bastion of Conservative ideology some would like you to think it is), then you have much to learn.

Best of luck.

If you ever met my cousin who is up there (4 star equiv) you would be shocked. He is 59 yrs old with a grey beard, glasses and the figure of a 59 yr old man who golfs as his fitness regime. He is anal and rigid on how things should go, timeline and a hack or his best buds. His favorite pass time is to drag his kids and wife to Civil War battle sites. He is a hoot to hang with when you get him going, but James Bond, he is not!