Army Cyber vs Navy Cyber

DrMom said:

About half of the USMA Cyber selectees go on to get a masters degree straight outta' USMA. Army ROTC cadets have the same grad school opportunities. Also, the additional year of commitment makes sense--in BOLC the new officers receive commercial training and certifications that cost a lot on the outside and are worth a lot on the outside.
Navy Cyber...you do not have grad school opportunities until you are an O-3.

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This is not entirely accurate in regards to Navy Cyber. There are opportunities to go to grad school immediately after graduation. Yes, those opportunities are not specific to the Information Dominance Corps (Navy Cyber), but they are still available to those IDC selects that qualify academically, just as they are available to any service selection.

Off the top of my head, I can think of classmates getting masters at MIT, Stanford, and Carnegie Mellon right now who will be cryptologic warfare officers when they hit the fleet.

jl123 said:

For most branches, class rank is the only relevant factor in determining branch selection. Not so for CY, MS, and Aviation.

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I'm seeing numbers a bit different based on several branching charts in the photo's section of the USMA Accessions Division group on Facebook.

Class of 2018 (20 slots)
Class rank of 1st to choose: 14
Class rank of last to choose w/o BRADSO: 337
Class rank of last to choose w/ BRADSO: 705

Class of 2017 (15 slots)
Class rank of 1st to choose: 21
Class rank of last to choose w/o BRADSO: 636
Class rank of last to choose w/ BRADSO: 702

Class of 2016 (15 slots)
Class rank of 1st to choose: 15
Class rank of last to choose w/o BRADSO: 402
Class rank of last to choose w/ BRADSO: 456

Class of 2015 (# slots not specified)
Class rank of 1st to choose: 24
Class rank of last to choose w/o BRADSO: 1003
Class rank of last to choose w/ BRADSO: none

There are 25 Cyber slots for the class of 2019 and, according to an article in this month’s West Point magazine, “Talent-Based Branching: The Army’s New Approach to Satisfying both Supply and Demand,” talent-based branching, which was introduced in 2013, “seeks to meet the needs of the Army by aligning cadets’ knowledge, skills, and behavior with branch talent and demands.” The article uses Cyber as an example:

It’s Branch Night 2018. Cadet X is nervously sitting among his company mates. He is hoping that he’ll find the gold sword and crossed lightening bolts insignia of the Cyber Branch when he tears open his envelope to learn in which branch he’ll serve for at least the next five years, but he knows that his rank on the Order of Merit List (OML) is only middle of the road, and that the limited number of Cyber slots will likely be filled by cadets in the top third of his class. If this were 2011, and the traditional OML or “legacy” branching was still the governing factor in determining branch assignments, Cadet X might open up his envelope to find the shell and flame insignia of the Ordnance Branch inside. But this is not 2011: Cadet X rips open his envelope and happily learns that he will be a Cyber officer upon commissioning. How did it happen. Answer: talent-based branching.

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The article goes on to quote a LTC who said, “We needed a system that got the right cadets into the right place...we wanted to have a system that incentivized cadets to tailor their experience at USMA to prepare themselves as best as possible for their future, and help cadets understand where their unique talent set best serves the Army.”

After describing the reasons for and methodology of talent-based branching, the article concludes the story of Cadet X with:

Ultimately, the Branching Board found Cadet X to be a much stronger talent fit for Cyber than Ordnance: He received “exceptional” ratings for three of Cyber’s five priority talents, but on only one of Ordnance’s; the talent managers identified Cyber as his best fit, while Ordnance did not crack the top five branch recommendations for Cadet X; his branch score for Cyber was 2.9 our of 3, while his score for Ordnance was just average; he majored in information technology, a degree favorable to Cyber, and he listed his proficiency in numerous computer languages in his cadet file; and, perhaps most important, the Cyber Branch Commandant indicated the branch wanted Cadet X, while the Ordnance Branch Commandant indicated that the branch was “indifferent” to him. Cadet X also included a personal statement in his file highlighting his talents and some of the intangible attributes that would make him a good fit for Cyber.

...

The branches are happier too. In 2017, Cyber got 13 out of their 20 “must select.” Occasionally, a cadet in the top quarter of his or her class will get bumped from a branch preference determined solely by OML because the branch said they weren’t a good fit for the skills, knowledge, or abilities it seeks in its officers, but more often than not, talent-based branching provides cadets in the bottom half of their class a chance to move up to receive a branch that is the best fit for their talents. “It’s hard to argue with putting the right people in the right place.”

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Good luck to all of the Firsties when they open those envelopes next Wednesday!

OneStepAtATime said:

jl123 said:

For most branches, class rank is the only relevant factor in determining branch selection. Not so for CY, MS, and Aviation.

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I'm seeing numbers a bit different based on several branching charts in the photo's section of the USMA Accessions Division group on Facebook.

Class of 2018 (20 slots)
Class rank of 1st to choose: 14
Class rank of last to choose w/o BRADSO: 337
Class rank of last to choose w/ BRADSO: 705

Class of 2017 (15 slots)
Class rank of 1st to choose: 21
Class rank of last to choose w/o BRADSO: 636
Class rank of last to choose w/ BRADSO: 702

Class of 2016 (15 slots)
Class rank of 1st to choose: 15
Class rank of last to choose w/o BRADSO: 402
Class rank of last to choose w/ BRADSO: 456

Class of 2015 (# slots not specified)
Class rank of 1st to choose: 24
Class rank of last to choose w/o BRADSO: 1003
Class rank of last to choose w/ BRADSO: none

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Your numbers are probably more accurate. The numbers I presented were from the charts displayed on Branch Night and would not have included subsequent changes between Branch Night and graduation.

VelveteenR said:

The article goes on to quote a LTC who said, “We needed a system that got the right cadets into the right place...we wanted to have a system that incentivized cadets to tailor their experience at USMA to prepare themselves as best as possible for their future, and help cadets understand where their unique talent set best serves the Army.”

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This exactly what Ive been stating. In some cases, a Cadet is identified in their Cow year and paired with a mentor to guide them. Why during their Cow year. Its after affirmation and the cadet is committed to their career development. Class '17 is not a great example due to turmoil with in the cadets. You need to understand there is an undertow of positioning amongst hard driven cadets who have career aspirations.

Push Hard, Press Forward

The new system of branch selection has taken a simple task and made a Rube Goldberg process of it - humorously more complicated necessary. The improvements in branch education are excellent and all that was needed to correct any issues with the merit based system.

The Order of Merit (OEM) system of branch selection was better. It was simple, transparent, fair, and rewarded performance. Problems of "fit" were due to lack of complete understanding of a branch rather than lack of qualifications, an issue better addressed by branch education and mentorship. With a few exceptions all cadets are qualified for most branches. Obviously, a cadet majoring in English should not be allowed to choose Medical Services or Cyber, regardless of class rank unless they somehow also had obtained the necessary education. Aviation also has some specific qualifications that require deviation from strict order of merit. But the USMA core curriculum prepares cadets for all other branches with the critical deciding factor being personal preference, not qualification. Provided with sufficient information and guidance, cadets are better at choosing the correct branch than branching boards.

While it is called Talent Based Branching, the changes to the system actually have little to do with talent or qualifications. The article on Talent Based Branching improperly uses a case from the Cyber Branch as an example of success, a branch that is as clear an exception in the branch process as Medical Services.

The article also laments that the order of merit system resulted in many non-engineering majors choosing Engineers as a branch, as if that were significant. Officers branching Engineers do not design space shuttles. They don't design anything. Their "talent" is digging ditches, clearing minefields and blowing things up. Bridges? They assemble them from prefabricated parts like Lego's. No need for Differential Equations - the only math required is arithmetic and algebra; maybe a protractor too. The core math, science, and engineering sequence provides cadets with the education necessary to branch Engineers. The same argument applies to most other branches; the differences in necessary talent and qualifications are minimal. In cases where a specific qualification is necessary an objective standard can be set that would be far simpler than the new system. If Infantry requires greater physical skills, set cutoff scores for APFT, IOCT, etc.

The other problem with Talent Based Branching is lack of transparency. When choices can be rearranged behind closed doors, it leads to subjective bias, favoritism, and back room deals. A case in point - the articles states that sometimes high ranking cadets get bumped out of their branch of choice. This contradicts what was presented at the parents' branch briefing two years ago. Then they stated the new system was only be used to move cadets up into a branch they couldn't get on merit, but never to move a cadet out of a branch they earned on merit. This implied that new slots were allocated for those moving up, but the reality is that in order for someone to move into a branch someone has to be moved out. Giving a worthy cadet, on the brink of graduation, an unpleasant branch surprise in no way improves the branching process.

Don't get me started on Branch Detail.

@jl123 While you have a point, you are confusing Medical Service Corps/Medical Services (MSC) with Medical Corps (MC). Any major including English is a good fit for the Medical Service Corps--which does not get specialized training in health but rather brings those specialties to the fight through administration, logistics, communications, transportation, etc--it is like an Army in miniature devoted to delivering healthcare to the warfighter and managing & supply MTFs around the world. As someone who teaches MSCs and MC and DC and NC officers at the masters and doctoral level, an English degree is a fine degree--you do have to be able to add and subtract--and willing to learn to program a bit and do finance for your masters--but you do not have to go to Med School to be in the Medical Service Corps. The Medical Corps are physicians; it is a completely different track. They wear different branch insignia, too.
For the USMA 2019's the number of MSC slots proposed is next to zero; the number of MC slots is unchanged.

Mea culpa on MSC vs MC. The Army would make it easier for people like me if they created more unique branch names. I meant to refer to cadets selected to go to medical school and that an English major, absent other specific coursework, would not likely be a candidate for one of the few slots.

Not knocking English. It is one of the most useful majors, especially when combined with other disciplines.

Although....at the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences...so long as a student has completed the required laboratory courses, one hears that a good English or Philosophy major is always welcome. @another13mom Same is true at other medical schools in the US. There is the desire and need to diversify the physician workforce. There is many an Army doctor who did a liberal arts major (ART!) with a minor in Pre-Med--who maybe grew up to be a colonels or something like that. (Not out of USMA, of course.)

Reflecting on the thread in general and branching at USMA more specifically. Cyber BOLC is hard. 2LTs fail out of it because they cannot pass the different tests--and have to be sent to a different branch for BOLC--and perhaps it is not the 2LT's first choice. Anyone requesting Cyber should know his or her skills--using a multi-method demand-side driven match-making approach makes sense. (I should add West Point 2LT's do not fail out of Cyber BOLC--but there is a lot of variation in other educational tracks at other institutions where a degree called "Information Systems" may mean a lot of different things.)

To kick the "Dead Horse" again. One aspect about talent based branching that has not been mentioned. The US military in general has a very difficult issue with retention. How do you keep young talented people from leaving? Talent base is trying to bridge this gap by matching talented resources with careers that are fulfilling. Its a difficult challenge when so many are disenchanted with the military, unfulfilled aspirations and the monetary opportunities outside the military. This program is trying to help with this problem.

The OP wanted to compare Navy vs Army Cyber opportunities. They are worlds apart and we've strayed out of our lane on this subject

Push Hard, Press Forward

Agree with DrMom on the merits a liberal arts education brings to fields such as medicine and computer science. With respect to USMA and choosing cadets for medical school and Cyber, a top down selection process makes sense to fill those few slots - there is specific coursework and aptitude required. Humanities and social science majors would be excellent candidates if they could fit the required coursework into their schedule in addition to their major courses and the core curriculum.

For most other branches Talent Based efforts should focus on education and helping cadets make an informed choice, not selection. Otherwise, I fear the slippery slope where branching evolves into a draft process by the branches.