Hazing?

Jmoney457 said:
trackandfield08 said:
nor did I ever feel singled-out, humiliated, or made to suffer.
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That's a pretty low standard for hazing, but you must have been so perfect that they could never find a reason to be singled out. Each of those things certainly happened to me my freshman year.
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So nice to see you again, it's been so long...

As the question was specific to hazing at USCGA, posted in the USCGA forum, I would say your experiences at USMMA are irrelevant to the OP's question. If what you say is true, then you should have reported the issues through your chain. But, for the sake of satisfying your blunt curiosity, I'll clarify.

USCG Recruit Training defines hazing as "any conduct whereby one military member or employee, regardless of Service or rank, unnecessarily causes another military member or employee, regardless of Service or rank, to suffer or be exposed to an activity that is cruel, abusive, oppressive, or harmful."

Was I called out individually for mistakes I made? Yes. Is it embarrassing to be called out? Yes. Did being called out mean being potentially yelled at, instructed to perform incentive training (physical activities such as push ups, lunges, planks, squats, etc.), or instructed to conduct remedial tasks as a swab? Yes.

As a cadet, it meant administrative punishments such as demerits, tours, and restriction. As a JO, it means getting called into your CO, XO or OPS's office or into the Chief's Mess and told very bluntly what you did is not acceptable and won't be happening again. It can effect your performance evaluation, your ability to promote, or what job you're assigned to next.

Did I ever feel like I was unnecessarily instructed to do things by another CG member that were cruel, abusive, oppressive or harmful? No. Never.

The times I was called out were because I chose, whether willfully or due to my own neglect to remember instructions, to disregard the policies, regulations, or expectations put in place as a swab, a cadet, and now as a junior officer. The consequences fit the nature of my mistake and were designed to teach me the importance of following whatever policy or regulation I had broken. Being called out and made to answer for your mistakes through established consequences is always uncomfortable and can be embarrassing. It's a very visceral reminder that we are not perfect and answer to someone when we do mess up. But, I never felt that I was made to suffer. Performing incentive training, remedial tasks, or being yelled at is not true suffering. All of those things are strictly regulated down to when, where, how, and for how long the consequence can last.

OP, there are a substantial amount of policies and regulations put in place to make sure hazing does not occur at a SA, I know they exist for USCGA as the entire USCG has an anti-hazing policy. If something does cross the line, as it can happen from time to time, the response is swift and designed to ensure that incident never occurs again. If you have specific information or stories you would like to have confirmed or denied, please post here. There are several of us that can tell you what is and is not authorized.
 
trackandfield08 said:
Jmoney457 said:
trackandfield08 said:
nor did I ever feel singled-out, humiliated, or made to suffer.
Click to expand...

That's a pretty low standard for hazing, but you must have been so perfect that they could never find a reason to be singled out. Each of those things certainly happened to me my freshman year.
Click to expand...

So nice to see you again, it's been so long...

As the question was specific to hazing at USCGA, posted in the USCGA forum, I would say your experiences at USMMA are irrelevant to the OP's question. If what you say is true, then you should have reported the issues through your chain. But, for the sake of satisfying your blunt curiosity, I'll clarify.

USCG Recruit Training defines hazing as "any conduct whereby one military member or employee, regardless of Service or rank, unnecessarily causes another military member or employee, regardless of Service or rank, to suffer or be exposed to an activity that is cruel, abusive, oppressive, or harmful."

Was I called out individually for mistakes I made? Yes. Is it embarrassing to be called out? Yes. Did being called out mean being potentially yelled at, instructed to perform incentive training (physical activities such as push ups, lunges, planks, squats, etc.), or instructed to conduct remedial tasks as a swab? Yes.

As a cadet, it meant administrative punishments such as demerits, tours, and restriction. As a JO, it means getting called into your CO, XO or OPS's office or into the Chief's Mess and told very bluntly what you did is not acceptable and won't be happening again. It can effect your performance evaluation, your ability to promote, or what job you're assigned to next.

Did I ever feel like I was unnecessarily instructed to do things by another CG member that were cruel, abusive, oppressive or harmful? No. Never.

The times I was called out were because I chose, whether willfully or due to my own neglect to remember instructions, to disregard the policies, regulations, or expectations put in place as a swab, a cadet, and now as a junior officer. The consequences fit the nature of my mistake and were designed to teach me the importance of following whatever policy or regulation I had broken. Being called out and made to answer for your mistakes through established consequences is always uncomfortable and can be embarrassing. It's a very visceral reminder that we are not perfect and answer to someone when we do mess up. But, I never felt that I was made to suffer. Performing incentive training, remedial tasks, or being yelled at is not true suffering. All of those things are strictly regulated down to when, where, how, and for how long the consequence can last.

OP, there are a substantial amount of policies and regulations put in place to make sure hazing does not occur at a SA, I know they exist for USCGA as the entire USCG has an anti-hazing policy. If something does cross the line, as it can happen from time to time, the response is swift and designed to ensure that incident never occurs again. If you have specific information or stories you would like to have confirmed or denied, please post here. There are several of us that can tell you what is and is not authorized.
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So by your own admission, you were singled out. Singling people out is obviously not hazing as you said earlier. Humiliating someone is also not hazing in certain cases, depends on the cause of the humiliation. Both subjective terms, I suggest not making blanket statements.
 
Jmoney457 said:
Humiliating someone is also not hazing in certain cases, depends on the cause of the humiliation.
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Interesting point.
My son is currently Cadre at an SMC.
They have been trained as to what the limits are.
Some of those limits are linked to Title 9.
So you can not disparage a recruits gender, heritage, orientation, etc, but you can point out physical characteristics.
For example, "you fat ****", etc.
Oddly, assigning a recruit to care for an inanimate object is considered hazing by the school.
The State he in considers most "hazing" a crime and the administration is keenly aware of the negative impact of even the appearance of hazing.
 
AJC said:
Jmoney457 said:
Humiliating someone is also not hazing in certain cases, depends on the cause of the humiliation.
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Interesting point.
My son is currently Cadre at an SMC.
They have been trained as to what the limits are.
Some of those limits are linked to Title 9.
So you can not disparage a recruits gender, heritage, orientation, etc, but you can point out physical characteristics.
For example, "you fat ****", etc.
Oddly, assigning a recruit to care for an inanimate object is considered hazing by the school.
The State he in considers most "hazing" a crime and the administration is keenly aware of the negative impact of even the appearance of hazing.
Click to expand...

Calling a recruit fat at a federal academy is certainly not sanctioned or allowed. You should not put people down for no reason. Calling people fat does nothing to solve the problem, it just labels the person and makes it harder for him/her to make a change. Aside from not being allowed it is unnecessary and unprofessional. But I digress, nothing here is about an SMC. Everybody already knows what goes on at SMCs, and its obvious because we see schools like The Citadel making big changes to address the issues.
 
Jmoney457 said:
Calling a recruit fat at a federal academy is certainly not sanctioned or allowed. You should not put people down for no reason. Calling people fat does nothing to solve the problem, it just labels the person and makes it harder for him/her to make a change. Aside from not being allowed it is unnecessary and unprofessional. But I digress, nothing here is about an SMC. Everybody already knows what goes on at SMCs, and its obvious because we see schools like The Citadel making big changes to address the issues.
Click to expand...

Seeing as service academy have weight/body fat restrictions, pointing out that someone is out of reg, ie fat, is not "putting them down for no reason". While you may feel it "labels the person and makes it harder for him/her to make a change" the academies are pretty adept at helping the out of reg cadet make the necessary changes. They get plenty of supervision and practice making those changes. And, if despite all the positive encouragement they receive, they fail to make the necessary changes, then they are disenrolled.
 
Korab said:
Jmoney457 said:
Calling a recruit fat at a federal academy is certainly not sanctioned or allowed. You should not put people down for no reason. Calling people fat does nothing to solve the problem, it just labels the person and makes it harder for him/her to make a change. Aside from not being allowed it is unnecessary and unprofessional. But I digress, nothing here is about an SMC. Everybody already knows what goes on at SMCs, and its obvious because we see schools like The Citadel making big changes to address the issues.
Click to expand...

Seeing as service academy have weight/body fat restrictions, pointing out that someone is out of reg, ie fat, is not "putting them down for no reason". While you may feel it "labels the person and makes it harder for him/her to make a change" the academies are pretty adept at helping the out of reg cadet make the necessary changes. They get plenty of supervision and practice making those changes. And, if despite all the positive encouragement they receive, they fail to make the necessary changes, then they are disenrolled.
Click to expand...
Letting somebody know they are out of regs and calling somebody a "fat ****" aren't even close to the same thing.
 
Hazing.....there’s more hazing in your local college sorority. From listening to my DS tell stories I’m impressed with how very little of it exists.
 
Oh I was singled out. I ran into one of my old cadre years later who told me he regretted it and if they had done today what they did then, there would be Courts Martial.

Is that true? I don’t know. But I do think our cadre went too far at times and it was in the back of my mind when I was a cadre (and not going to far).
 
Example: I was marched through Chase Hall by a cadre as he told classmates (this is swab summer) that Swab LITS couldn’t handle it and had to go home. After that I was matched to the liberty vans to pick the van to take me to the airport. But before we could I was told I had to call my parents to tell them I couldn’t cut it and was coming home.

Or there was the time the cadre made me cover Coast Guard with tape on my gear and write “Civilian” over it because I wasn’t worthy of the Coast Guard. I actually think that one bother cadre.

And then I remember being yelled at during my 4/c year so loud (screaming directly into my ear) that I couldn’t hear out of it for awhile... it just went dead for awhile.

I’m sure things have been worse in the past, but in 2002, that was going a little too far.
 
What’s interesting to think about is, a number of your cadre won’t graduate, so it was surprising (but not at all unpleasant) to see cadre kicked out who at one time lectured you on how the perfect cadet should be formed.
 
Korab said:
Jmoney457 said:
Calling a recruit fat at a federal academy is certainly not sanctioned or allowed. You should not put people down for no reason. Calling people fat does nothing to solve the problem, it just labels the person and makes it harder for him/her to make a change. Aside from not being allowed it is unnecessary and unprofessional. But I digress, nothing here is about an SMC. Everybody already knows what goes on at SMCs, and its obvious because we see schools like The Citadel making big changes to address the issues.
Click to expand...

Seeing as service academy have weight/body fat restrictions, pointing out that someone is out of reg, ie fat, is not "putting them down for no reason". While you may feel it "labels the person and makes it harder for him/her to make a change" the academies are pretty adept at helping the out of reg cadet make the necessary changes. They get plenty of supervision and practice making those changes. And, if despite all the positive encouragement they receive, they fail to make the necessary changes, then they are disenrolled.
Click to expand...

Dis-enrolling someone and having a conversation for failing to make any progress and consistently being out of the regs is one thing, calling them a fat a** is another. As a leader, you set the example...not degrade people with stupid terms. I have no doubt that a federal academy would show someone the door for something like this. Nobody wants an officer degrading his men in the field which kills morale across the board.

LineInTheSand said:
Or there was the time the cadre made me cover Coast Guard with tape on my gear and write “Civilian” over it because I wasn’t worthy of the Coast Guard. I actually think that one bother cadre.
Click to expand...

I had a time where my cadre gave me a pair of civies to switch into while my class was in uniform, made me change and then PT my classmates while screaming in my face. I was definitely singled out and humiliated, but it wasn't hazing.
 
Jmoney457 said:
Everybody already knows what goes on at SMCs, and its obvious because we see schools like The Citadel making big changes to address the issues.
Click to expand...

somebody here sure doesn't know what he's talking about

the Citadel sure has made changes - better leadership training than back in the day - some traditions changed mostly for the better
 
Jmoney457 said:
Dis-enrolling someone and having a conversation for failing to make any progress and consistently being out of the regs is one thing, calling them a fat a** is another. As a leader, you set the example...not degrade people with stupid terms. I have no doubt that a federal academy would show someone the door for something like this. Nobody wants an officer degrading his men in the field which kills morale across the board.



I had a time where my cadre gave me a pair of civies to switch into while my class was in uniform, made me change and then PT my classmates while screaming in my face. I was definitely singled out and humiliated, but it wasn't hazing.
Click to expand...

Might call it hazing now. When was that?
 
Jmoney457 said:
Korab said:
Jmoney457 said:
Calling a recruit fat at a federal academy is certainly not sanctioned or allowed. You should not put people down for no reason. Calling people fat does nothing to solve the problem, it just labels the person and makes it harder for him/her to make a change. Aside from not being allowed it is unnecessary and unprofessional. But I digress, nothing here is about an SMC. Everybody already knows what goes on at SMCs, and its obvious because we see schools like The Citadel making big changes to address the issues.
Click to expand...

Seeing as service academy have weight/body fat restrictions, pointing out that someone is out of reg, ie fat, is not "putting them down for no reason". While you may feel it "labels the person and makes it harder for him/her to make a change" the academies are pretty adept at helping the out of reg cadet make the necessary changes. They get plenty of supervision and practice making those changes. And, if despite all the positive encouragement they receive, they fail to make the necessary changes, then they are disenrolled.
Click to expand...

Dis-enrolling someone and having a conversation for failing to make any progress and consistently being out of the regs is one thing, calling them a fat a** is another. As a leader, you set the example...not degrade people with stupid terms. I have no doubt that a federal academy would show someone the door for something like this. Nobody wants an officer degrading his men in the field which kills morale across the board.

LineInTheSand said:
Or there was the time the cadre made me cover Coast Guard with tape on my gear and write “Civilian” over it because I wasn’t worthy of the Coast Guard. I actually think that one bother cadre.
Click to expand...

I had a time where my cadre gave me a pair of civies to switch into while my class was in uniform, made me change and then PT my classmates while screaming in my face. I was definitely singled out and humiliated, but it wasn't hazing.
Click to expand...

Wow - these posts explain a lot.
 
ekb1398 said:
Korab said:
Jmoney457 said:
Calling a recruit fat at a federal academy is certainly not sanctioned or allowed. You should not put people down for no reason. Calling people fat does nothing to solve the problem, it just labels the person and makes it harder for him/her to make a change. Aside from not being allowed it is unnecessary and unprofessional. But I digress, nothing here is about an SMC. Everybody already knows what goes on at SMCs, and its obvious because we see schools like The Citadel making big changes to address the issues.
Click to expand...

Seeing as service academy have weight/body fat restrictions, pointing out that someone is out of reg, ie fat, is not "putting them down for no reason". While you may feel it "labels the person and makes it harder for him/her to make a change" the academies are pretty adept at helping the out of reg cadet make the necessary changes. They get plenty of supervision and practice making those changes. And, if despite all the positive encouragement they receive, they fail to make the necessary changes, then they are disenrolled.
Click to expand...
Letting somebody know they are out of regs and calling somebody a "fat ****" aren't even close to the same thing.
Click to expand...
Its exactly the same thing - one just has more enthusiasm.
 
LineInTheSand said:
Jmoney457 said:
Dis-enrolling someone and having a conversation for failing to make any progress and consistently being out of the regs is one thing, calling them a fat a** is another. As a leader, you set the example...not degrade people with stupid terms. I have no doubt that a federal academy would show someone the door for something like this. Nobody wants an officer degrading his men in the field which kills morale across the board.



I had a time where my cadre gave me a pair of civies to switch into while my class was in uniform, made me change and then PT my classmates while screaming in my face. I was definitely singled out and humiliated, but it wasn't hazing.
Click to expand...

Might call it hazing now. When was that?
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That was my plebe year, 2015 a couple of weeks into the academic year during our nightly "meetings" with the training staff where they could do whatever they wanted with us for 1 hour or 1.5 hours. Those meetings aren't a thing anymore.
 
My son is at an SMC and hadn't passed his PFT due to pneumonia and not cleared for running yet. At dinner one night ice cream sundaes were being offered. His platoon sergeant singled him out in front of 3 platoons and told him he was too fat for ice cream and to sit the hell down.

After a criminal hazing event the commandant removed the chain of command for reporting hazing because 1) cadets were reporting hazing and cadre minimized it and 2) some cadre were complicit in the "old guard will still live on" mentality. Another cadet reported the incident and his platoon sergeant received a command discipline.

The next day cadre yelled at the entire company for skipping CoC even when ordered to do so. It's a catch-22 amongst territorial cadre and a commandant staff who will tell you the current "hazing" has no direct training instruction. My son's adult advisor is a retired CMC and attends every training he can to try to affect positive change.
 
DesertCaliMom said:
My son is at an SMC and hadn't passed his PFT due to pneumonia and not cleared for running yet. At dinner one night ice cream sundaes were being offered. His platoon sergeant singled him out in front of 3 platoons and told him he was too fat for ice cream and to sit the hell down.

After a criminal hazing event the commandant removed the chain of command for reporting hazing because 1) cadets were reporting hazing and cadre minimized it and 2) some cadre were complicit in the "old guard will still live on" mentality. Another cadet reported the incident and his platoon sergeant received a command discipline.

The next day cadre yelled at the entire company for skipping CoC even when ordered to do so. It's a catch-22 amongst territorial cadre and a commandant staff who will tell you the current "hazing" has no direct training instruction. My son's adult advisor is a retired CMC and attends every training he can to try to affect positive change.
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They have a cadet who has failed to pass fitness standards and is waiting to eat an ice cream sundae. I agree the words were harsh. The cadre probably even regretted saying it. Teaching discipline while at the same time making sure to never hurt anyone’s tender feelings is a tough business. One cadet would take what was said much different. They all handle things and respond differently. The goal of the cadre and summer program is in a way to “break down” the person and then build them back up. My DS told me a number of stories after the summer where there were things that would make some question the methods. Things that made people feel small and insignificant. Sometimes Cadre make mistakes as well. They have a very difficult job.....telling someone to sit down because they’re too fat to eat ice cream is hardly criminal. Insensitive to the fragile ego of the the recipient for sure.
 
Alaskan said:
They have a cadet who has failed to pass fitness standards and is waiting to eat an ice cream sundae. I agree the words were harsh. The cadre probably even regretted saying it. Teaching discipline while at the same time making sure to never hurt anyone’s tender feelings is a tough business. One cadet would take what was said much different. They all handle things and respond differently. The goal of the cadre and summer program is in a way to “break down” the person and then build them back up. My DS told me a number of stories after the summer where there were things that would make some question the methods. Things that made people feel small and insignificant. Sometimes Cadre make mistakes as well. They have a very difficult job.....telling someone to sit down because they’re too fat to eat ice cream is hardly criminal. Insensitive to the fragile ego of the the recipient for sure.
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The point also being he isn't fat, completely in weight limits and only hadn't passed due to pneumonia. If you're going to discipline a subordinate, at least know the right reason.
 
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