Early Decision and USNA -- A Definitive Answer

If you want to attend USNA, do NOT apply Early Decision to a civilian school. The reason is that, if you are accepted to that civilian school under the ED program, USNA will require you to withdraw your application from USNA.

It does not matter what the civilian school says. USNA is a member of the NACAC (National Association for College Admission Counseling) and must abide by their rules, which require you to commit to your ED school and withdraw applications from all other colleges. There is apparently no exception for SAs. This situation occurred with a candidate this year and the above was USNA's position; they would no longer consider that candidate's application and required it to be withdrawn.

[I realize that there are ED exceptions for financial aid, etc., but that is not relevant to the above. I also realize that no one can literally force you to attend your ED school. Finally, I realize you could not tell USNA about your civilian ED school, continue your USNA application, etc. Let's not even go there.]

This does NOT apply to Early Action programs, which are not binding. I don't know whether this rule applies to the other SAs. And I will add this to my sticky on USNA admissions so it will be available to future candidates.

Yes, yes, a Sticky! On all SA forums, assuming same applies.

It's already been added to the USNA Admissions sticky -- not that folks always read it . . .

I'll try to remember to bump the thread in the late spring.

@usna1985, thank you for the great reminder. Those few candidates who try to game the system by applying ED while holding out for an SA — have their cake and eat it too — are doing so dishonestly. The SAs are built on a foundation of integrity. It turns my stomach to think that a few are acting without integrity right from the start.

@MidCakePa I prefer to think these folks are acting out of stupidity and am willing to bet important body parts on that assessment. A lot of these folks don't even understand the regular college application process. I've seen folks on here apply ED to a bunch of civilian schools, primarily because they don't understand what they are doing, only that they have a better chance of acceptance if they apply ED. Too bad that's the case, but...

I hear you, @kinnem, and agree that stupidity/naïveté/ignorance explains the actions of some. (Though I’m not as willing as you to give the benefit of the doubt to all who do this.)

The sad thing is, these same people acting out of stupidity/naïveté/ignorance are applying to potentially lead men and women into combat. A lot of personal growth certainly happens over four years at an SA, but I like to think SA candidates already possess more than a modicum of attention to detail and ability to follow explicit instructions.

MidCakePa said:

I hear you, @kinnem, and agree that stupidity/naïveté/ignorance explains the actions of some. (Though I’m not as willing as you to give the benefit of the doubt to all who do this.)

The sad thing is, these same people acting out of stupidity/naïveté/ignorance are applying to potentially lead men and women into combat. A lot of personal growth certainly happens over four years at an SA, but I like to think SA candidates already possess more than a modicum of attention to detail and ability to follow explicit instructions.

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No doubt there are some bad apples.
There are folks on here who can't pay a modicum of attention, let alone attention to detail. Some of these folks are simply dreamers. Some of these folks even get appointments. We can only hope they will either sink or swim proficiently. Every class has a goat.

MidCakePa said:

I hear you, @kinnem, and agree that stupidity/naïveté/ignorance explains the actions of some. (Though I’m not as willing as you to give the benefit of the doubt to all who do this.)
The sad thing is, these same people acting out of stupidity/naïveté/ignorance are applying to potentially lead men and women into combat. A lot of personal growth certainly happens over four years at an SA, but I like to think SA candidates already possess more than a modicum of attention to detail and ability to follow explicit instructions.

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Please remember that many of the applicants are still kids. Yes they are choosing to follow a different path than other students in HS but they are still kids who make mistakes and uninformed decisions. Please step back, take a deep breath and remember this site is to inform and not accuse. I know in my youth I made some decisions I wish I could change. I trust these youth if given the option would not try to game the system or break the rules but are not informed. Most HS Counselors and many posters on SAF are not aware of the circumstances of applying to SA and other highly sought after Colleges. Please try be an asset with your comments to the folks who have questions. Not judge, jury and executioner.

ThePatternisFull said:

MidCakePa said:

I hear you, @kinnem, and agree that stupidity/naïveté/ignorance explains the actions of some. (Though I’m not as willing as you to give the benefit of the doubt to all who do this.)
The sad thing is, these same people acting out of stupidity/naïveté/ignorance are applying to potentially lead men and women into combat. A lot of personal growth certainly happens over four years at an SA, but I like to think SA candidates already possess more than a modicum of attention to detail and ability to follow explicit instructions.

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Please remember that many of the applicants are still kids. Yes they are choosing to follow a different path than other students in HS but they are still kids who make mistakes and uninformed decisions. Please step back, take a deep breath and remember this site is to inform and not accuse. I know in my youth I made some decisions I wish I could change. I trust these youth if given the option would not try to game the system or break the rules but are not informed. Most HS Counselors and many posters on SAF are not aware of the circumstances of applying to SA and other highly sought after Colleges. Please try be an asset with your comments to the folks who have questions. Not judge, jury and executioner.

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Wow! I don't know anyone who has been more helpful than MidCakePA. We're having a meta-discussion about ED, not judging individuals. That being said, as a moderator I think I need to remove myself from this discussion.

I believe parents must sign the ED agreement. So, even if the kids are naive, confused, or even stupid, one would hope their parents would be more on the ball. At least in most cases.

I remember asking this question on this forum a few months back. Luckily there was time for me to switch from ED to EA

ThePatternisFull said:

Most HS Counselors and many posters on SAF are not aware of the circumstances of applying to SA and other highly sought after Colleges. Please try be an asset with your comments to the folks who have questions.

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@ThePatternisFull, with all due respect, I do expect anyone who is seriously applying to SAs or any other top colleges (which are the main purveyors of ED) to have the wherewithal to understand the very explicit yet simple language around ED. The instructions are plain and unequivocal, and ED applicants must sign their name stating they understand the nature of ED and are willing to abide by the rules.

If we (by which I mean the “royal we,” not necessarily you and me) are going to call cadets/mids “the best of the best” blah, blah, blah, then I’d like to think we can expect them to understand ED as well as the thousands of others who apply ED but not to SAs. Am I asking a lot? Perhaps. But aren’t we asking a lot of prospective cadets/mids, now and in the future?

(By the way, my post above does not make a blanket accusation about ED applicants, as you imply. I simply state that there unfortunately are a few who intentionally and dishonestly try to game the system. Nothing more, nothing less.)

Who knew ED was such a problem at USNA...

Some admissions departments at schools apparently like to use ED as a bludgeon. DS received a call in October (a couple of days after submitting his Common App) from an admissions counselor at one of his 5 NROTC schools (his current second choice but a great school and quite selective) asking if he would consider changing to ED (by No 1). DS explained that he was applying to SAs. The admissions counselor implied that if he went ED, his acceptance chances would be great (not 100%) but he said "frankly" that if stayed RD, his odds were very long because DS was not displaying the "commitment" they are looking for. At the time, we did not know he would be awarded a NROTC scholarship. The AD person did explain that if he went ED, he would have to drop his SA applications - that was enough to say "thanks, but I'll take my chances with regular decision" and ended the call. We checked into the SAs policies right after that call and that's when we definitively learned that EDs were out of the question. But had the counselor not said so, not sure what DS would have done.

ders_dad said:

Some admissions departments at schools apparently like to use ED as a bludgeon.

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ders_dad said:

The admissions counselor implied that if he went ED, his acceptance chances would be great (not 100%) but he said "frankly" that if stayed RD, his odds were very long because DS was not displaying the "commitment" they are looking for.

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(Normal) Colleges are first and foremost a business. Early Decision is a tool to ensure that they have a full class when the next year starts, without having to deal with the guesswork and uncertainty of yield (ie. the percentage of persons who accept an offer). I do think that there is some abuse of the system, both by the colleges in trying push an early commitment, but also by students gaming the system because they think they have a better chance of admission.

MidCakePa said:

ThePatternisFull said:

Most HS Counselors and many posters on SAF are not aware of the circumstances of applying to SA and other highly sought after Colleges. Please try be an asset with your comments to the folks who have questions.

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@ThePatternisFull, with all due respect, I do expect anyone who is seriously applying to SAs or any other top colleges (which are the main purveyors of ED) to have the wherewithal to understand the very explicit yet simple language around ED. The instructions are plain and unequivocal, and ED applicants must sign their name stating they understand the nature of ED and are willing to abide by the rules.

If we (by which I mean the “royal we,” not necessarily you and me) are going to call cadets/mids “the best of the best” blah, blah, blah, then I’d like to think we can expect them to understand ED as well as the thousands of others who apply ED but not to SAs. Am I asking a lot? Perhaps. But aren’t we asking a lot of prospective cadets/mids, now and in the future?

(By the way, my post above does not make a blanket accusation about ED applicants, as you imply. I simply state that there unfortunately are a few who intentionally and dishonestly try to game the system. Nothing more, nothing less.)

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Sorry IMHO the comment of knowing that folks are intentionally being dishonest and trying to game the system is not one I agree with. Could you be right? Maybe? Could you be incorrect? Maybe? I am of the thought process that theses applicants are still kids and I will give them every benefit of the doubt. All I am asking is for those of us who are offering advice is to be courteous and yes I do believe you are asking a lot of a 17-18 year old kid. Yes they will one day be leading others after they learn first to follow during plebe year.

(By the way, my post above does not make a blanket accusation about ED applicants, as you imply. I simply state that there unfortunately are a few who intentionally and dishonestly try to game the system. Nothing more, nothing less.)[/QUOTE]
I would be curious as to your facts and how you know candidates are intentionally being dishonest and gaming the system?

I think the problem is that many kids and parents do not understand the difference between Early Action (EA) and Early Decision (ED). One is binding, basically saying if we admit you, you are promising you will matriculate. The other is saying if you submit by a certain date, they will let you know their response earlier than the regular decision. This is not binding.

ThePatternisFull said:

(By the way, my post above does not make a blanket accusation about ED applicants, as you imply. I simply state that there unfortunately are a few who intentionally and dishonestly try to game the system. Nothing more, nothing less.)

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I would be curious as to your facts and how you know candidates are intentionally being dishonest and gaming the system?[/QUOTE]

What, you want examples of people being dishonest on SA applications? Fine, I'll give you some:

• Guy from my hometown fractures his hand during his senior year of high school. If he told West Point about it his appointment would certainly have been deferred if not rescinded. He hid his injury, showed up for Beast, and years later is now a helicopter pilot in the Army.
• A girl I know who met on a CVW literally had her mother fill out her application for her. She'll commission as an Ensign when she graduates from USNA this spring.
• I can think of at least a handful of people that lied (and continue to lie) about prior drug use in high school. Many of them are now commissioned officers. A few, you'll be delighted to know, have Top Secret clearances.
• I know somebody that memorized the answers to one of the colorblindness tests in order to gain admission and later to ensure he got his desired service assignment. Also now a commissioned officer.

You don't think that the emphasis that we as a society place on gaining admission to a good college doesn't engender a "win at all costs" mentality among our high schoolers? That some people, after realizing how much the trajectory of their entire life could change depending on their college, might decide to game the system or embellish themselves? Knowing that from a purely utilitarian standpoint the they are probably justified given the outcomes they face?

In no way am I condoning any of this behavior. I'm merely trying to make the point that many college applicants are often incentivized to "game the system" or be dishonest when considering all of the outcomes of their decision on their future. And, more importantly, SA applicants are not always unequicovally different from their peers in this regard. Applying, gaining admission, or graduating from a Service Academy does not by itself make you a person of character. To say, "Oh, s/he is a SA applicant, therefore let's give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they have to have better than average morals" would be wrong in my opinion. I graduated from USNA, and I have had the sincere privilege of knowing some incredible people with the highest standards of personal conduct and integrity. USNA certainly helped develop them into officers, but my suspicion is that they would still have been the same quality of people had they never set foot on the Yard. I have also had some classmates who are, quite frankly, complete trash, and have no business being responsible for men, women, or machines. The system did not manage to weed them out or make them a person of character either during the admissions process or in our 4 years by the Severn.

//End major thread jack.

BDHuff's comments don't surprise me. I know the pressure kids feel to get into a "good" school. Even the exalted USNA gets some bad apples--did in my time, and suspect the pressure is even greater now. Not condoning, or excusing, and I will certainly call it out when I see it.

BDHuff09 said:

I know somebody that memorized the answers to one of the colorblindness tests in order to gain admission and later to ensure he got his desired service assignment. Also now a commissioned officer.

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> This one scares me. There is a reason for all the medical/physical requirements, and many of those requirements are written as a direct result of lessons learned the hard way. Please tell me this guy isn't flying planes or driving a ship.....he is putting other people at risk.