Failing a class in Yuk year.

proudpop2 said:
SMP said:
USMA 1994 said:
I can also tell you that having a 3.45 overall composite GPA will put you in the top 15% of the class of 2021. That tells me that grade inflation is not rampant.

This is a subject that is very close to my heart. I was one of those cadets who walked the line of a 2.0 and go each semester. It was not from a lack of intelligence or effort I lacked the educational foundation to succeed in a strong college environment. I worked my butt off everyday of my life for four years to walk across the stage with my classmates at graduation.

I was one of those big fish in a small pond and was the coolest kid in school. I never opened a book in high school and then all of a sudden I was extremely ordinary.

Parents usually only talk about the great accomplishments of their cadets while the reality is that all cadets struggle at some point and many struggle the entire four years.
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There's even less inflation than that for Class of 2022 as a 3.35 CPS will put in you the top 8.5%.

Someone asked earlier about the number of separations. For current Cows, class rankings as of July, 2018 were computed on a class size of 1229. At the next ranking as of the completion of AYT 2019-1 (7 February 2019), class size was listed as 1177. Thus, the current Cows class lost a total of 48 cadets over the course of 1 semester.
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I believe they lost more than that if turn backs are included in this count? for instance, 1229-1177 = 52 cadets fewer in the class size (but if turn backs are now added back in/included in this current class size then there would have had to have been more separated that resulted in that 1177 number? correct?

I am not sure exactly how turn backs are counted in the process but I know of at least one cadet who was originally supposed to graduate a year earlier, however, he became a turn back due to injury so he would become part of the following year's class. So, if he is now included in that 1177 remaining class size number, for instance, that would mean that another cadet was actually separated as well to arrive at the same 1177 number? So, not sure how many turn backs there are on average but I would think the cadet separation number would be understated as a result?
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Sorry, nice hurried math on my part adding 48 to 29 to come up with 77! I agree with the thought on the turn backs, which is why I said the class as a whole was down by the incorrect math number from the summer. I wondered how many turn backs might have been added. I also wondered as per the discussion on the thread whether someone might be moved back a class, but then catch back up with the class and be included in the number if that is really in fact possible.
 
USMA 1994 said:
I can also tell you that having a 3.45 overall composite GPA will put you in the top 15% of the class of 2021. That tells me that grade inflation is not rampant.

This is a subject that is very close to my heart. I was one of those cadets who walked the line of a 2.0 and go each semester. It was not from a lack of intelligence or effort I lacked the educational foundation to succeed in a strong college environment. I worked my butt off everyday of my life for four years to walk across the stage with my classmates at graduation.

I was one of those big fish in a small pond and was the coolest kid in school. I never opened a book in high school and then all of a sudden I was extremely ordinary.

Parents usually only talk about the great accomplishments of their cadets while the reality is that all cadets struggle at some point and many struggle the entire four years.
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DrMom said:
I can say...as someone who has been kicking around for a long time...
2.0 and go is an aspiration for those struggling to get by...and fearing that you will hang on close and never make it.
It is so hard.
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Hey I had a question for you guys that are grads. A little off the subject but how many credit hours do you need to graduate? I was talking to DS and he is indicating that he will have over 190 credit hours. When I graduated from normal civilian college I had about 130 credit hours.

Is there some weird way of calculating credit hours? Ds was telling me that he will be taking 24 hours every semester from here on out and he said he may take some PE classes in the summer to reduce the load. That does not make any sense to me. He said that is the way it is in Chemical Engineering? I originally thought he was having to take summer school for some bad grades but he showed them to me. He is doing well. I am just puzzled? that is about the number of credit hours needed to get a Masters degree in civilian college.
 
@SFRanger....WOW, holy cow 190 credits for a Bachelors? I have no idea how that can be done unless every class is 4 Credits and you get credit for summer activities. That equates to 5.93 4 Credit courses per semester! I guess I am your age, I had 123 hours with a Bachelors and another 48 credits for my Masters. When I looked at the course matriculation chart on USMA's website, a Bachelor's Degree contained 37, 3 credit academic courses and 10 additional credits in Military Science and Phys Edu. That would equal 121 credits....for engineering majors add 3 engineering courses. or 130 total credits required. Even if ALL these courses are 4 credit courses it would still only mean 170 total credit hours over 4 years? Did your DS attend MAPS? if so, that would make sense with the additional junior college (MAPS) credits added. According to USMA Redbook it only shows you need completion of 40 academic courses of at least 3.0 credit hours each and a 2.0 CQPA to graduate. That equates to the standard 120 credit hours, just like civilian college.

A question for your DS.....if he is taking the equivalent of 8 courses for each semester this year, how does he schedule them? Are there night courses in addition to the day courses? I only ask because the Redbook only indicates 5 periods available for academics?
 
I do not think I would call it "weird" but just a little different and everything you take is worth credit. You will usually take 5-6 classes a semester that will be between 18-22 hours a semester. They are also counting PE classes as well as military Science. Those could add will add 4-8 hours each semester. Pure academic hours would be around the 150 mark. Many of the STEM classes are 4.5 hours courses and other classes may have a lab.
 
Impulsive said:
@SFRanger....WOW, holy cow 190 credits for a Bachelors? I have no idea how that can be done unless every class is 4 Credits and you get credit for summer activities. That equates to 5.93 4 Credit courses per semester! I guess I am your age, I had 123 hours with a Bachelors and another 48 credits for my Masters. When I looked at the course matriculation chart on USMA's website, a Bachelor's Degree contained 37, 3 credit academic courses and 10 additional credits in Military Science and Phys Edu. That would equal 121 credits....for engineering majors add 3 engineering courses. or 130 total credits required. Even if ALL these courses are 4 credit courses it would still only mean 170 total credit hours over 4 years? Did your DS attend MAPS? if so, that would make sense with the additional junior college (MAPS) credits added. According to USMA Redbook it only shows you need completion of 40 academic courses of at least 3.0 credit hours each and a 2.0 CQPA to graduate. That equates to the standard 120 credit hours, just like civilian college.

A question for your DS.....if he is taking the equivalent of 8 courses for each semester this year, how does he schedule them? Are there night courses in addition to the day courses? I only ask because the Redbook only indicates 5 periods available for academics?
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If you double block DPE during the same semester and also complete MS during the same semester, there is a possibility for 7 academic course slots available in the second semester. Takes scheduling and DAC approval but can be managed.

Edited to add: DPE courses are 1/2 semester. Not sure if all DPE courses are the same length.
 
I didn't mean to imply it couldn't be done, only that the "standard" for WP according to the RedBook Course Matriculation plan, there are five class periods a day, classes are "at least 3 credit hours" and that it is mandatory to take 10 Credits in Military Science and DPE. The RedBook indicated 111 Credit hours for academic courses and 10 Credit hours for Military Science and DPE for a total of 121 Credit hours "needed for graduation". I realize this is a "minimum" but I was very curious how you could accumulate 190 credits in four years? Purely personal reasons as our DS is hoping to go to WP and I am pretty sure he would want to get all the knowledge he can. I was just trying to figure out the courses taken and the scheduling possibilities.
 
Impulsive said:
I didn't mean to imply it couldn't be done, only that the "standard" for WP according to the RedBook Course Matriculation plan, there are five class periods a day, classes are "at least 3 credit hours" and that it is mandatory to take 10 Credits in Military Science and DPE. The RedBook indicated 111 Credit hours for academic courses and 10 Credit hours for Military Science and DPE for a total of 121 Credit hours "needed for graduation". I realize this is a "minimum" but I was very curious how you could accumulate 190 credits in four years? Purely personal reasons as our DS is hoping to go to WP and I am pretty sure he would want to get all the knowledge he can. I was just trying to figure out the courses taken and the scheduling possibilities.
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To be honest with you guys, that is what I though. I have a feeling that he is just confused. He did tell me that since he was at the best Engineering school in the world he wanted to take advantage of it. He says it has to do with Chemical Engineering but I don't see how that can be correct. I don't think they would let you take that number of courses even if they were available. I will look into it more to see. Thanks for the input.
 
I don't know how many credits our EE cadet will graduate with, but he's done more than one 24-credit semester. As noted above, though, these include military and DPE credits.
 
Hey SF Ranger...fwiw...2018 graduated as a Chem E and what i can share is his second semester Cow year i have never NEVER lol... heard him sounding more tired ever! Very little sleep to be had with the course load along with additional duties and his participation in the irregular warfare group..firstie year...just a bit better! Best of luck to your son!
 
At many schools, it takes five years to complete an engineering degree--and that is without the requirements for military science and PE at USMA. If you are interested in the standards they are available in the 'Red Book' on the USMA webpage. Below is the link for the RedBook (Curriculum guide) for the Class of 2020. Each class has a slight variation depending on core requirements and majors and minors being offered.

Relevant to this discussion, there is also a table that lists includes the term and year minimum GPA for avoiding an academic board/academic probation. The standards become higher each year/semester. (Do a 'Control F' search for academic probation)

https://www.usma.edu/sites/default/files/pdfs/RedBook_GY2020_20170803.pdf
 
VelveteenR said:
I don't know how many credits our EE cadet will graduate with, but he's done more than one 24-credit semester. As noted above, though, these include military and DPE credits.
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HAHAHAHHAH. that is what he is telling me but I can't see how it is even possible to schedule that many hours. Isn't that 192 hours (24 hours per semester x 8 semesters)? That is nuts man especially with the standards. By the way congratulations to your son if he is about finished.

One other question, do they get some kind of increase in their class standings if they graduate with 192 credit hours and other cadets only graduate with 130 hours? Or so you just suck it up and compete based on GPA?
 
SFRanger said:
VelveteenR said:
I don't know how many credits our EE cadet will graduate with, but he's done more than one 24-credit semester. As noted above, though, these include military and DPE credits.
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HAHAHAHHAH. that is what he is telling me but I can't see how it is even possible to schedule that many hours. Isn't that 192 hours (24 hours per semester x 8 semesters)? That is nuts man especially with the standards. By the way congratulations to your son if he is about finished.

One other question, do they get some kind of increase in their class standings if they graduate with 192 credit hours and other cadets only graduate with 130 hours? Or so you just suck it up and compete based on GPA?
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I graduated with around 160 credit hours for a mechanical engineering degree. Most semesters I was around 18-21 credit hours. Includes DPE and MS classes. I had one semester I only had 5 classes (15 credit hours) and I had no idea what to do with myself I had so much free time. It was amazing.

Ranking is just based on GPA.
 
Love4monsters said:
There were 27 Yuks separated in January due to academics. I have no idea how it works. My son’s old roommate had to take a semester off after their Plebe year and is now back. Has your son been in contact with his academic advisor and TAC?

I wish you both well.
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Thanks for your insight. Am trying to learn more about the re-entry after re-test. Do you know if any resources to get details on how this actually works? For example if the cadet failed an academic class and they send him home for a semester, how could he possibly be ready to retake a test for that same class after being out of it for 6 months? Even if they take a similar class at a community college, seems impossible to pass a test you weren't preparing for. Or maybe they give them study material to take home?
Need help navigating this "turn back" business.
 
@Tango3 Send me a PM...I suspect we are already connected via social media...Are you in the FB discussion thread? If not...let's connect.
Stay strong Mama. I know that it is hard while our kids gather information at a snail's pace--and we are in full not-sleeping-how-is-this-kid-going-to-make-it mode (health insurance, reapplication, duration of separation, so many unknowns.)
Again, Tango 3. I think we know each other already--but let's make sure. (You will know it is me from the little picture here....)

Edited this for the curious. The kids are selected to fully separate, sent home with a study packet, invited to take the test around or after the 60 day mark and then invited back for the next semester if they pass. Pass at what level? I do not know. They have to complete a modified application/re-application including the CFT. However, if/when they return to school, they will have to pass the APFT and retake the entire class that they failed and for which they have passed the test. The semester at home or semester and summer can and should be used for taking the equivalent of future courses at a local college. The credits won't transfer but the experience of having learned the academic material is almost like a mid-college prep program.
 
OldRetSWO said:
LOL, Service Academies have gotten so much gentler these days.
During my era at at USNA, we all had been good students in high school and for some, other colleges but USNA profs did not give easy grades - showing up, doing all the work and even getting help could still easily end up with a D or an F. I graduated with a 2.73 and I was WELL into the upper half of the class academically.
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A 2LT told me once that he graduated last in his WP class. As a young Army officer, he was the best in the company. During missions, I trusted this officer with the most difficult tasks.
 
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