USAFA vs AFROTC

Coastal2023

Coastal2023

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Mar 7, 2019
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Congratulations to all that got Appointments for the class of 2023! And my deepest sympathies for those of you still waiting and most likely not getting in. Keep your heads up and stay positive.
My DS has not received a appointment but has received a AFROTC scholarship and the more I look into it the more I like it. Let me know what you think. Is it better to have the college experience or the service life right from the start?
 
Which is better depends on the cadet. Where will they really thrive? End result is the same in any case and shortly after you're commissioned no one cares anyway. What counts from that point forward is results.
 
My son is a USAFA grad. Most of his buddies commissioned in other manners (OTS, AFROTC). He has now served 5 years and is a Capt. He is currently at a Leadership School in Montgomery Al. I asked him how it is, he said it is great, it is almost like a class reunion. A lot of the others there went to USAFA, but they also came from other places.
One of the advantages of going to an academy is that about 1/2 the officers commissioned yearly come from the Academy. Not sure if that is right, but it is my perception. Due to that dynamic, when sent somewhere there is a better chance of running into people you may know from college.
 
I believe it depends on the person not the institution. It also depends on timing and what you want to do in the military and in life. Smucks get kicked out of both and get in trouble as junior officers (and sometime senior officers) from both - not because of where they graduated from but because of the type of person they are. Each commissioning source should be seen as a means to an end not the end. People will evaluate you in the military (and life) based on your performance not the ring you wear. That said, I am honored to have graduated from USAFA and be a part of the very strong comradery of USAFA and other service academy graduates (grads). The chain of command for an Airman at my last assignment was - Flight Commander (Capt) - USAFA Grad, Squadron Commander (Lt Col) - USAFA Grad, Group Commander (Col) - USAFA Grad, Wing Commander (Col) - USAFA Grad, NAF Commander (Lt Gen) - USAFA Grad, MAJCOM Commander (Gen) - USAFA Grad, Chief of Staff of the Air Force (Gen) - USAFA Grad, Secretary of the Air Force - USAFA Grad. That is not to say that ROTC or OTS grads can't, won't or haven't ever served in these positions. It was just a unique observation that some of us (grads) made. Grads usually know who the other grads are.
Sometimes grads have more opportunities in the military and in life. When I graduated, my commissioning year group had the fewest number of pilot training opportunities (requirements set by the Air Force that can change based on lots of things) and USAFA grads were allocated 2.5 times the number that ROTC grads were allocated despite ROTC commissioning 1.5 times more officers than USAFA. Next week I am headed to a civilian job fair that is restricted to service academy grads. Again, that is not to say that the companies who will be present won't hire anyone else but they know that all who will be present will be service academy grads. It is nice to have a service academy on your resume but that alone will not get you hired - it all comes down to performing where you are. Regardless of what school someone goes to they should take advantage of the opportunities life gives them and grow where they are planted. "Duty then is the sublimest word in the English language. You should do your duty in all things. You can never do more, you should never wish to do less." Robert E. Lee "If I do my full duty the rest will take care of itself." George S. Patton
 
7258FFAWPOA said:
I believe it depends on the person not the institution. It also depends on timing and what you want to do in the military and in life. Smucks get kicked out of both and get in trouble as junior officers (and sometime senior officers) from both - not because of where they graduated from but because of the type of person they are. Each commissioning source should be seen as a means to an end not the end. People will evaluate you in the military (and life) based on your performance not the ring you wear. That said, I am honored to have graduated from USAFA and be a part of the very strong comradery of USAFA and other service academy graduates (grads). The chain of command for an Airman at my last assignment was - Flight Commander (Capt) - USAFA Grad, Squadron Commander (Lt Col) - USAFA Grad, Group Commander (Col) - USAFA Grad, Wing Commander (Col) - USAFA Grad, NAF Commander (Lt Gen) - USAFA Grad, MAJCOM Commander (Gen) - USAFA Grad, Chief of Staff of the Air Force (Gen) - USAFA Grad, Secretary of the Air Force - USAFA Grad. That is not to say that ROTC or OTS grads can't, won't or haven't ever served in these positions. It was just a unique observation that some of us (grads) made. Grads usually know who the other grads are.
Sometimes grads have more opportunities in the military and in life. When I graduated, my commissioning year group had the fewest number of pilot training opportunities (requirements set by the Air Force that can change based on lots of things) and USAFA grads were allocated 2.5 times the number that ROTC grads were allocated despite ROTC commissioning 1.5 times more officers than USAFA. Next week I am headed to a civilian job fair that is restricted to service academy grads. Again, that is not to say that the companies who will be present won't hire anyone else but they know that all who will be present will be service academy grads. It is nice to have a service academy on your resume but that alone will not get you hired - it all comes down to performing where you are. Regardless of what school someone goes to they should take advantage of the opportunities life gives them and grow where they are planted. "Duty then is the sublimest word in the English language. You should do your duty in all things. You can never do more, you should never wish to do less." Robert E. Lee "If I do my full duty the rest will take care of itself." George S. Patton
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My DS is currently trying to decide between these 2 commissioning paths. One day it seems he has things figured out then the next he changes his mind. I plan on showing him your post just to give another perspective. The decision will be his to make in the end and I will support it either way but I am rooting for the Academy!
 
7258FFAWPOA said:
I believe it depends on the person not the institution. It also depends on timing and what you want to do in the military and in life. Smucks get kicked out of both and get in trouble as junior officers (and sometime senior officers) from both - not because of where they graduated from but because of the type of person they are. Each commissioning source should be seen as a means to an end not the end. People will evaluate you in the military (and life) based on your performance not the ring you wear. That said, I am honored to have graduated from USAFA and be a part of the very strong comradery of USAFA and other service academy graduates (grads). The chain of command for an Airman at my last assignment was - Flight Commander (Capt) - USAFA Grad, Squadron Commander (Lt Col) - USAFA Grad, Group Commander (Col) - USAFA Grad, Wing Commander (Col) - USAFA Grad, NAF Commander (Lt Gen) - USAFA Grad, MAJCOM Commander (Gen) - USAFA Grad, Chief of Staff of the Air Force (Gen) - USAFA Grad, Secretary of the Air Force - USAFA Grad. That is not to say that ROTC or OTS grads can't, won't or haven't ever served in these positions. It was just a unique observation that some of us (grads) made. Grads usually know who the other grads are.
Sometimes grads have more opportunities in the military and in life. When I graduated, my commissioning year group had the fewest number of pilot training opportunities (requirements set by the Air Force that can change based on lots of things) and USAFA grads were allocated 2.5 times the number that ROTC grads were allocated despite ROTC commissioning 1.5 times more officers than USAFA. Next week I am headed to a civilian job fair that is restricted to service academy grads. Again, that is not to say that the companies who will be present won't hire anyone else but they know that all who will be present will be service academy grads. It is nice to have a service academy on your resume but that alone will not get you hired - it all comes down to performing where you are. Regardless of what school someone goes to they should take advantage of the opportunities life gives them and grow where they are planted. "Duty then is the sublimest word in the English language. You should do your duty in all things. You can never do more, you should never wish to do less." Robert E. Lee "If I do my full duty the rest will take care of itself." George S. Patton
Click to expand...
I think the term is schmucks and not smucks:D
 
I posted this months ago on another thread, I figured it was still applicable. Updated my personal information to reflect my current status and one additional emphasis point.

"I figured I would quickly jump in and give my $.02 since I wish I had more information 6 years ago when I was going through the application process to both USAFA and AFROTC.

A bit about me: I commissioned in 2015 from AFROTC. I applied to USAFA for the class of 2015 and 2016. I got TWE both times. I just graduated from the F-16 B Course. Looking back, not getting into the Academy is the best thing that ever happened to me (YMMV).

I can't comment on Academy Pro/Con, but for those individuals on the fence, maybe my AFROTC experience can shed some more light on the issue.

AFROTC Pro's:
1. You get to the same place
-This is something I think so many applicants do not understand. Once you get your commission and get to your first Active Duty base, no one cares if you were USAFA/AFROTC/OTS. They care if you can do your job and if you are a good dude. Once those butter bars are pinned on, everyone is equal. You are not deemed inferior because of your commissioning source. The goal is the commission, not the road to get there. (I can't stress this enough. I have yet to meet one person who cares an iota on the commissioning source. If they do, they are wrong.) Additionally, if your goal is to be a pilot, I never saw an individual in AFROTC who put in the work required not get one. YMMV.

2. Self-Motivation
- This was one of the biggest strengths of AFROTC in my opinion. No one is yelling at you to wake up at 0400 for LLAB, no one is forcing you to go to the gym, no one is forcing you to go to class, no one is forcing you to study. You have to motivate yourself to put in the work when no one is holding you accountable. I had to make my own schedule and stick to it, and I believe this forces you to grow as a person in a way unique to AFROTC. Personally, I credit this factor with my performance in UPT. After a 12 hour day, no one is forcing you to hit the gym for an hour and study the rest of the night. For me, it helped having 4 years of self-motivation under my belt to press through the long year.

3. Experiences
- USAFA gives you unique opportunities, I am not discounting that. However no one talks about the experiences you get going to a normal college. I am not talking about partying and bar hopping (which aren't bad experiences, everything in moderation and legally). During a normal week I got to travel the coast, getting in early morning surf sessions before class and a sunset session afterwards. We would go jet skiing in the local bay on random afternoons. During the weekends you could do anything from go snowboarding up in the mountains, fly ultralights off the coastal cliffs, go windsurfing when the waves sucked, do road trips and travel the state without any real restrictions, literally anything you can think of. The freedom a traditional college entails gives you time to fill with once in a lifetime experiences. My life is owned by the Air Force for the next 10 years, I would not trade those 4 years of freedom for anything.

AFROTC Con's:
1. You aren't locked in to commissioning until after Sophomore year
-This is probably the biggest con. The big cut off is selection for summer field training which happens between Sophomore/Junior year. After you get selected, you are going to commission unless you shoot yourself in the foot with grades/legal problems/PT fails. Even cadets who put in the minimum effort required get a slot. However until that selection, there is still uncertainty.

2. Lack of funding for extra programs
-While this is making a comeback, AFROTC cadets don't get the extra programs that USAFA cadets have. Freefall, powered flight, gliders, ect. are opportunities unique to USAFA.

3. Distractions
-This is the biggest downfall of cadets in AFROTC. While the lack of structure is beneficial for many cadets, it can really hurt those individuals who prefer a structured learning environment. Grades are the first thing to suffer when a cadet gets distracted by all the other time consuming activities a college has. My detachment started out with around 120 cadets for the class of 2015. We commissioned 25. Most individuals dropped out on their own after deciding it wasn't for them. For those who were forced out though, grades was the most common reason.

For the record, nothing I am saying here should be misconstrued as a jab at USAFA. Some of my best friends went there. I simply am trying to illustrate how AFROTC is not just a "backup option", but a completely equal commissioning source with unique inherent strengths. At the end of the day, the best commissioning source depends on the individual."
 
The above is much appreciated. My DS is still waiting to hear and AFROTC is def part of his plan B at University of Utah. I just saved your info to my notes to share with him later today. Thank you for your thoughts and your service.
 
a400831 said:
I posted this months ago on another thread, I figured it was still applicable. Updated my personal information to reflect my current status and one additional emphasis point.

"I figured I would quickly jump in and give my $.02 since I wish I had more information 6 years ago when I was going through the application process to both USAFA and AFROTC.

A bit about me: I commissioned in 2015 from AFROTC. I applied to USAFA for the class of 2015 and 2016. I got TWE both times. I just graduated from the F-16 B Course. Looking back, not getting into the Academy is the best thing that ever happened to me (YMMV).

I can't comment on Academy Pro/Con, but for those individuals on the fence, maybe my AFROTC experience can shed some more light on the issue.

AFROTC Pro's:
1. You get to the same place
-This is something I think so many applicants do not understand. Once you get your commission and get to your first Active Duty base, no one cares if you were USAFA/AFROTC/OTS. They care if you can do your job and if you are a good dude. Once those butter bars are pinned on, everyone is equal. You are not deemed inferior because of your commissioning source. The goal is the commission, not the road to get there. (I can't stress this enough. I have yet to meet one person who cares an iota on the commissioning source. If they do, they are wrong.) Additionally, if your goal is to be a pilot, I never saw an individual in AFROTC who put in the work required not get one. YMMV.

2. Self-Motivation
- This was one of the biggest strengths of AFROTC in my opinion. No one is yelling at you to wake up at 0400 for LLAB, no one is forcing you to go to the gym, no one is forcing you to go to class, no one is forcing you to study. You have to motivate yourself to put in the work when no one is holding you accountable. I had to make my own schedule and stick to it, and I believe this forces you to grow as a person in a way unique to AFROTC. Personally, I credit this factor with my performance in UPT. After a 12 hour day, no one is forcing you to hit the gym for an hour and study the rest of the night. For me, it helped having 4 years of self-motivation under my belt to press through the long year.

3. Experiences
- USAFA gives you unique opportunities, I am not discounting that. However no one talks about the experiences you get going to a normal college. I am not talking about partying and bar hopping (which aren't bad experiences, everything in moderation and legally). During a normal week I got to travel the coast, getting in early morning surf sessions before class and a sunset session afterwards. We would go jet skiing in the local bay on random afternoons. During the weekends you could do anything from go snowboarding up in the mountains, fly ultralights off the coastal cliffs, go windsurfing when the waves sucked, do road trips and travel the state without any real restrictions, literally anything you can think of. The freedom a traditional college entails gives you time to fill with once in a lifetime experiences. My life is owned by the Air Force for the next 10 years, I would not trade those 4 years of freedom for anything.

AFROTC Con's:
1. You aren't locked in to commissioning until after Sophomore year
-This is probably the biggest con. The big cut off is selection for summer field training which happens between Sophomore/Junior year. After you get selected, you are going to commission unless you shoot yourself in the foot with grades/legal problems/PT fails. Even cadets who put in the minimum effort required get a slot. However until that selection, there is still uncertainty.

2. Lack of funding for extra programs
-While this is making a comeback, AFROTC cadets don't get the extra programs that USAFA cadets have. Freefall, powered flight, gliders, ect. are opportunities unique to USAFA.

3. Distractions
-This is the biggest downfall of cadets in AFROTC. While the lack of structure is beneficial for many cadets, it can really hurt those individuals who prefer a structured learning environment. Grades are the first thing to suffer when a cadet gets distracted by all the other time consuming activities a college has. My detachment started out with around 120 cadets for the class of 2015. We commissioned 25. Most individuals dropped out on their own after deciding it wasn't for them. For those who were forced out though, grades was the most common reason.

For the record, nothing I am saying here should be misconstrued as a jab at USAFA. Some of my best friends went there. I simply am trying to illustrate how AFROTC is not just a "backup option", but a completely equal commissioning source with unique inherent strengths. At the end of the day, the best commissioning source depends on the individual."
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Thank You this info is priceless and extremely helpful.
 
a400831 said:
For the record, nothing I am saying here should be misconstrued as a jab at USAFA. Some of my best friends went there. I simply am trying to illustrate how AFROTC is not just a "backup option", but a completely equal commissioning source with unique inherent strengths. At the end of the day, the best commissioning source depends on the individual."
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a400831 summarizes the ROTC experience extremely well. As he states it completely depends on the individual of who thrives best at an SA vs ROTC. There are some who will BEST succeed at an SA and some that will BEST succeed at a "normal" college ROTC program. And of course there is a percentage of cadets/mids who would probably do well at EITHER choice.

When my DS went to college, four years ago, I was very concerned that he would oversleep, miss PT, skip class and play video games all day. I thought that my DS would NEED the discipline and structure of an SA to thrive. This is because through the high school years, my wife and I would have to play drill sergeant all the time, in order to get him moving all the time to all his programs, and sports.

Four years later, he will be one of 18 cadets at his Army ROTC program to commission (45 began the program), he graduates on time, performed well academically and in ROTC all four years, and at Advanced Camp, and received his first choice of Active Duty branch.

For him, ROTC and the "normal" college experience turned out to be perfect for him, and I was all wrong to believe he needed the structure of the academy.

The majority of military officers don't come from the academies. While the SA's are indeed amazing institutions, it would be wrong to think of ROTC programs as a "second rate" choice for becoming an officer. As a400831 said, it is just a different but completely equal commissioning source.
 
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Our DS opted AFROTC scholarship over USAFA. As stated it comes down to the individual's needs/desires.
For our DS it came down to a little bit of everything.
1. He was an AF brat. He grew up moving every 2 yrs, 3 if he was lucky. Being military, his friends also were for the most part kids of ADAF military. That was his social circle.
~ He wanted to feel what it was like not to be tied to the military, but still with 1 foot in. The idea of a life outside of the AF was enticing. He knew he wanted to fly, thus, in turn he knew if he got pilot he would be close to 33 before he could bolt. 33 yrs where his entire life was tied to the AF in some shape or form...AF dependent, cadet, ADAF.
2. His #1 college offered him a scholars slot. He would be able to major in his dream degree, plus that scholars program required him to intern on the Hill or at the UN for a yr. He could do this with AFROTC, and interning on the Hill was very enticing.
~ He had an AFROTC scholarship and merit from the school, so it was a "free" ride. Finance was not an issue.
3. His #1 college also had that big school feel...Football and Basketball teams were national level. The AFROTC unit was recognized many times as the best large AFROTC det in the nation.
~ His Dad also attended that unit, and flew F15Es, so he knew it could happen if he wanted to fly. We also had him meet the CoC in late Jan/early Feb. The CoC guaranteed him that if he regretted his decision in the fall, he would support him for a ROTC nom. He sat him down with cadets that were the same major, and got a UPT slot --- no adults around.

Our DS is an ADAF pilot that commissioned AFROTC. I truly believe for my child that he probably would not be a pilot now if he went to USAFA. As stated, it comes down to the individual. USAFA is absolutely amazing, however, for my kid it would not have been a good fit.

Both turn out amazing officers. Both have 1 very big thing in common when it comes to the cadets commissioning as officers. The cadets must want to be there and in that program. No kid impo walks into either situation thinking they won't commission, but there has never been 100% commissioning from either source.

We, as parents, tend to get wrapped up in the illusion, and forget that they are still only 17/18 yr old. The kids also get wrapped up in this too. They see all of the cool things, and not the reality of what life will be like 3 months after they graduate from HS.
 
A few years ago, I read an article in the Washington Post written by either an Army or Marine guy that was arguing that the SAs should be abolished. I don’t agree with that but one of his arguments was that SAs were too rigid and structured and the ROTC programs produced better critical thinkers because they didn’t have such structure and the burden of history. As other have stated above, I think instead of thinking about it in terms of the respective institutions, think about it from the perspective of the students. Some learn and become better leaders as of a result of more structure, some because they can be in more flexible learning environments. I think its not really about the intuition, its about the student. What works best for each individual student is the answer, for some its the SA, for some its ROTC.
 
AROTC-dad said:
When my DS went to college, four years ago, I was very concerned that he would oversleep, miss PT, skip class and play video games all day. I thought that my DS would NEED the discipline and structure of an SA to thrive. This is because through the high school years, my wife and I would have to play drill sergeant all the time, in order to get him moving all the time to all his programs, and sports.

Four years later, he will be one of 18 cadets at his Army ROTC program to commission (45 began the program), he graduates on time, performed well academically and in ROTC all four years, and at Advanced Camp, and received his first choice of Active Duty branch.
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This is ME! Your post gives me hope. I worry about DS self-managing if left to his own devices. I feel like the SAs offer his best chance to succeed. Plan B is Texas A&M on NROTC scholarship. I'm hoping the corps of cadets will structured enough to keep him on track. He's excited about the Corps. Mom is excited about him being not too far away.
 
I agree that the best path is whatever best fits the candidate. In my son's case, USAFA was the absolute best fit for him and his personality. He thrived in that environment and made the most of his entire time there. I am not sure that he would have been as happy in AFROTC.

The total experiences that he got through USAFA could not be had on another path. Flying gliders, free fall jump training, powered flight class, exchange to the Spanish Air Force Academy, deployed ops at Al Udeid, operation Air Force at Tinker AFB. All that in addition to excellent academics. He also had time to be a regular 20ish year old with snowboarding, skiing, mountain climbing, Rockies and Broncos games, and weekend shenanigans at UCCS or CSU social events.

Once he graduated he went right to UPT in Texas where he immediately knew half of his classmates from USAFA. Everywhere he has been stationed he connects with classmates and other alumni. The connections and mentoring that he got at USAFA from his AOC and others has also helped him in his career so far. He has been a DG in every phase of his training and schooling which has helped him get higher levels of responsibility at each squadron.

USAFA was definitely the right path for him.

Stealth_81
 
Current AFROTC Cadet whos switching to an Academy this year: After being denied from a SA last year, I joined AFROTC with the intent of commissioning through AFROTC. Some of the things I would note about AFROTC are that the extracurricular programs available to you are nothing like what the SA's provide. Also for me at least, AFROTC is really only one day a week and I found it to be nowhere near the intensity I was seeking in college. As a400831 said about the significant number of people who drop, I have found that one of the most irritating things in AFROTC is the number of people who put nearly no effort into the program and end up getting kicked out or dropping. The two major reasons I have for switching are the extracurriculars and environment that the SA's provide and if I had known what my experience was going to be like I would have tried harder to go to a SA last year.
 
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