Seeking Direction on Poor Choice Made

not a s@int

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Mar 27, 2019
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Hello all, I am brand new to this forum site and new to forums in general so I am just going to lay the facts out and ask for your honest responses.

My son applied to WP in 2018. He received 2 senator nominations and got an early LOA. Over Christmas break he took a seasonal job in retail. What ended up happening is he marked an item down in order to purchase it at an extremely low price. This was obviously noticed and he was terminated and cited for retail fraud.

Because his employer knew he was a good kid and also knew of his future goals, they did not have him arrested but he was to complete an anti-theft class which then got the charge dismissed.

Although the case is dismissed, he now has a police record. We don't know what will happen at this point. He is not here to talk to anyone because right after his case got dismissed, he left to bootcamp as he had also joined the army reserve component.

I know he will have to submit a police record report and I am afraid his appointment will be terminated. . . .HELP
 
I would contact his Admissions counselor, tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may. Maybe an attorney can have the record expunged?
Remember at West Point, cadets learn about and prepare for the ethical demands of officership by living under the dictates of an Honor Code, which states: "A Cadet will not lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerate those who do."
 
Well, I think the military can see expunged records. In any case, just fess up and tell the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth. This is not a terrible offence. He should be OK and by fessing up he doesn't have it eating at him the rest of his military career.
 
I would contact his Admissions counselor, tell the truth and let the chips fall where they may. Maybe an attorney can have the record expunged?
Remember at West Point, cadets learn about and prepare for the ethical demands of officership by living under the dictates of an Honor Code, which states: "A Cadet will not lie, cheat or steal, nor tolerate those who do."

ThePatternisFull, I thank you for your feedback & I will start my reply by saying my tone is very sincere. For sixteen years I raised my son. . .(many, many years) before he decided that he wanted to attend West Point (the summer before his senior year of hs he attended SLE with a friend. . .for fun). It was when he returned from SLE that he said this is where he would be applying. Anyhow, the point I really want to make in this reply is that all the years prior to this decision, I had been doing my very best to raise my son into a man with values and upstanding character. Ever since he was a little boy I would tell him how important it was to be honest, responsible, hard working, kind, ETC; if not daily I couldn't tell you how often. I understand the Honor Code and its importance to life in general. We are a family of faith and in relationship with our Savior Jesus Christ. As a side note, my husband is an officer in the Army (12 years). . .so even this came after our first son was born. I always thought he would choose to go to an Ivy League school, not the military, but we didn't pressure him in any direction.

When this incident happened I was devastated. I could not believe my son would do any such thing that would question his integrity or tarnish his character. . .EVER. Everyone around me was saying 'its not that bad' but my heart was broken, my trust was depleted, and I felt fully disgraced. I had my son take me to his work place to meet with the men that hired him and the team that he worked with to apologize; they would always rave about how great of an employe he was; worked hard and was fantastic with customers. I had to let them know how disappointed I was and that this is not how I raised my son, and I thanked them for how they handled the situation as discretely as possible. I don't know why he made the choice he did at that moment, it makes no sense to me. But it happened. I have forgiven him but I am still sad. I know that if his appointment is redacted, he can still choose to become an officer through another route. . .I just want whatever he wants for himself but above all else, God's will.
 
Well, I think the military can see expunged records. In any case, just fess up and tell the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth. This is not a terrible offence. He should be OK and by fessing up he doesn't have it eating at him the rest of his military career.

Honestly, I thought about the idea of expungement, but then I thought. . .that is also like lying if we are trying to hide something. . .and that would probably raise questions anyways. . .being deceitful is what got him in this situation, I don't want to make it worse! I thank you for your feedback & the fact that you mentioned his 'military career'. This is something my husband and I have been talking about. Even though I want it to be his choice to go to WP or not, there are other routes to becoming an officer (his father/my husband went ROTC). If this is truly what he wants to do, we believe God will make a way. Sincerely.
 
Hello all, I am brand new to this forum site and new to forums in general so I am just going to lay the facts out and ask for your honest responses.

My son applied to WP in 2018. He received 2 senator nominations and got an early LOA. Over Christmas break he took a seasonal job in retail. What ended up happening is he marked an item down in order to purchase it at an extremely low price. This was obviously noticed and he was terminated and cited for retail fraud.

Because his employer knew he was a good kid and also knew of his future goals, they did not have him arrested but he was to complete an anti-theft class which then got the charge dismissed.

Although the case is dismissed, he now has a police record. We don't know what will happen at this point. He is not here to talk to anyone because right after his case got dismissed, he left to bootcamp as he had also joined the army reserve component.

I know he will have to submit a police record report and I am afraid his appointment will be terminated. . . .HELP
I am confused - you say he was not arrested, but had to complete an anti-theft class, and then the charges were dismissed.

There is a HUGE difference between being charged with a crime and then having those charges dismissed through some diversion program, and going directly to the diversion program without charges having ever been filed.

Was he ever actually charged with a crime? Were any papers ever filed with a police department or a court? If no papers were ever filed with the police or a court then he was never arrested and there may no be obligation to report. If you aren't sure if anything was ever filed, you should immediately retain an attorney who regularly practices criminal law in your jurisdiction to help you determine exactly what happened and what has to be reported.
 
Well, I think the military can see expunged records. In any case, just fess up and tell the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth. This is not a terrible offence. He should be OK and by fessing up he doesn't have it eating at him the rest of his military career.

Honestly, I thought about the idea of expungement, but then I thought. . .that is also like lying if we are trying to hide something. . .and that would probably raise questions anyways. . .being deceitful is what got him in this situation, I don't want to make it worse! I thank you for your feedback & the fact that you mentioned his 'military career'. This is something my husband and I have been talking about. Even though I want it to be his choice to go to WP or not, there are other routes to becoming an officer (his father/my husband went ROTC). If this is truly what he wants to do, we believe God will make a way. Sincerely.
Well, do go ahead and get it expunged for far more reasons than the military. But with the military I would treat it like it's not expunged, even if I'm wrong and they can't see it. Again, it's not a serious offense and I don't think he'll have any difficulty. Plenty of kids have done that, and worse, and get forgiven as long as they're honest and remorseful about it. BTW, it will be an issue on any path he takes to commission. He'll still have to disclose it, or at least should disclose it.
 
I would suspect that your son has learned a very valuable lesson. Sometimes there is no other way for a person to lean, than from going through something themselves.

We give our kids the tools. They have to make the choices. Is should not be a reflection of you or DH. Kids are kids, they will do stupid stuff. That doesn’t stop once they receive an appointment. One of the biggest “ah-ha” things I personally have had is that fact. Even at a SA, there are stories of such “stupid stuff”. I guess I had thought they were all moral angels?? But not so. Stuff still happens. Perhaps you son has learned lessons that will bode well for his future, in a relatively ‘safe’ environment, vs when the consequences are much harsher (separation, for example). As a person of faith, know that everything happens for a reason!

Good luck. Everyone makes mistakes. It’s what happens after that matters most, IMO.
 
If there was any law enforcement involvement, it likely will be discoverable and reportable in a police records search, even if it is a juvenile offense, expunged, or dismissed. Unfortunately that is the likely situation. My DS did a stupid thing (trespassing) in 8th grade and was cited and put into a restorative justice program rather than have it adjudicated in court. He has been upfront about it with SA from day 1. When he went to have the local police department submit his police records to SA the trespassing records were a part of the package, even though it would normally be a juvenile sealed record. He is also going to have to report it on his SF-86. The point is, kids sometimes do dumb things even though they are very honorable and trustworthy (e.g. DS is a very high ranking Eagle Scout). It is most important to be upfront and own your mistakes and be able to demonstrate what you have learned. DS is an example that one isolated incident is not fatal to an appointment. DW and I have raised four boys and they all are great young men who had the advantages of disciplined and loving parents and many community institutions to guide their way. But 3 of 4 (so far) have had some kind of run in with the law. Teens simply do not have the best risk assessment skills. If it isn’t a pattern of bad (or violent) behavior, I believe the SAs will understand.
 
Hello all, I am brand new to this forum site and new to forums in general so I am just going to lay the facts out and ask for your honest responses.

My son applied to WP in 2018. He received 2 senator nominations and got an early LOA. Over Christmas break he took a seasonal job in retail. What ended up happening is he marked an item down in order to purchase it at an extremely low price. This was obviously noticed and he was terminated and cited for retail fraud.

Because his employer knew he was a good kid and also knew of his future goals, they did not have him arrested but he was to complete an anti-theft class which then got the charge dismissed.

Although the case is dismissed, he now has a police record. We don't know what will happen at this point. He is not here to talk to anyone because right after his case got dismissed, he left to bootcamp as he had also joined the army reserve component.

I know he will have to submit a police record report and I am afraid his appointment will be terminated. . . .HELP
I am confused - you say he was not arrested, but had to complete an anti-theft class, and then the charges were dismissed.

There is a HUGE difference between being charged with a crime and then having those charges dismissed through some diversion program, and going directly to the diversion program without charges having ever been filed.

Was he ever actually charged with a crime? Were any papers ever filed with a police department or a court? If no papers were ever filed with the police or a court then he was never arrested and there may no be obligation to report. If you aren't sure if anything was ever filed, you should immediately retain an attorney who regularly practices criminal law in your jurisdiction to help you determine exactly what happened and what has to be reported.

He was not arrested. A citation was given to him with a date to appear in court. He contacted the DA immediately who in turn had him complete that program online prior to his court date. When he showed up and the judge called his name, the DA said something to the effect of 'program such and such completed, motion (or move) to dismiss'. And that was the end. We have since pulled his record and it does show a charge of retail fraud and it shows 'dismissed' as the outcome. I don't know what else to say. My concern is how this will affect his appointment. . . .and at this point, we still do not know.
 
I would suspect that your son has learned a very valuable lesson. Sometimes there is no other way for a person to lean, than from going through something themselves.

We give our kids the tools. They have to make the choices. Is should not be a reflection of you or DH. Kids are kids, they will do stupid stuff. That doesn’t stop once they receive an appointment. One of the biggest “ah-ha” things I personally have had is that fact. Even at a SA, there are stories of such “stupid stuff”. I guess I had thought they were all moral angels?? But not so. Stuff still happens. Perhaps you son has learned lessons that will bode well for his future, in a relatively ‘safe’ environment, vs when the consequences are much harsher (separation, for example). As a person of faith, know that everything happens for a reason!

Good luck. Everyone makes mistakes. It’s what happens after that matters most, IMO.


He has indeed learned a lesson! And yet my heart seems to re-brake every time I think of this situation. I know we all want to hold ourselves to high standards especially morally, but in truth yes we all fail. We are a family of faith as well and has continued to support one another by standing on the promise that God's Will will be carried out no matter what and our lives will continue to be blessed because of His love and mercy. I too at times believe there are moral angels "over there". . .where they seem to be.

My second oldest son is applying to College Station and as I was reading THEIR moral code, it said the exact same thing about not lying or cheating or tolerating liars, cheaters etc. and I thought to myself. . .everyone has lied but of course we should do our best not to.

I appreciate the response and the encouragement!! & I pray that day to day all my children grow into better people.
 
If there was any law enforcement involvement, it likely will be discoverable and reportable in a police records search, even if it is a juvenile offense, expunged, or dismissed. Unfortunately that is the likely situation. My DS did a stupid thing (trespassing) in 8th grade and was cited and put into a restorative justice program rather than have it adjudicated in court. He has been upfront about it with SA from day 1. When he went to have the local police department submit his police records to SA the trespassing records were a part of the package, even though it would normally be a juvenile sealed record. He is also going to have to report it on his SF-86. The point is, kids sometimes do dumb things even though they are very honorable and trustworthy (e.g. DS is a very high ranking Eagle Scout). It is most important to be upfront and own your mistakes and be able to demonstrate what you have learned. DS is an example that one isolated incident is not fatal to an appointment. DW and I have raised four boys and they all are great young men who had the advantages of disciplined and loving parents and many community institutions to guide their way. But 3 of 4 (so far) have had some kind of run in with the law. Teens simply do not have the best risk assessment skills. If it isn’t a pattern of bad (or violent) behavior, I believe the SAs will understand.


Thank you for your response!! We also have 4 children. . .this one happens to be the oldest and expected to be a good example to his siblings. He is definitely a great young man who we are very proud of except for this very poor choice; which we still can not comprehend. We are praying that he will keep his appointment but we are also praying that God's will would be done and if that means a different path, the Lord knows why.
 
It will obviously depend on how WP view this. I see many responses say it's no big deal; I actually disagree to a certain extent. To go to the efforts of marking a product down so that you can purchase it a lowers price shows planning, thought and intent. Exactly why it is classed as fraud; to me far more serious than petty theft. However, the powers that be may view things differently. I hope things work out for your son.
 
Own up to it now rather than waiting for USMA to find out via the pre-R Day background check. Have DD call USMA, explain what happened, detail the lessons he learned, ask for mercy. Being proactive, apologetic and repentant go a long way in this type of situation.
 
I’ve seen this suggested before but I’m unsure of its applicability in this situation: prepare a written (or be prepared to explain) statement that shows understanding of wrongdoing, remorse, and growth.
 
My son reveived a speeding ticket after getting his appointment. A very different thing. He went to court and it was ripped up. dS called WP admissions to tell them. They were very appreciative that he called to tell them. They said it would not affect his offer but werevpleased he was honest about it.
 
not a s@int said:
...He was not arrested...
That's good.
not a s@int said:
...A citation was given to him with a date to appear in court...
Okay, that sounds like a misdemeanor.
not a s@int said:
...When he showed up and the judge called his name, the DA said something to the effect of 'program such and such completed, motion (or move) to dismiss'. And that was the end...
That's really good.
not a s@int said:
...We have since pulled his record and it does show a charge of retail fraud and it shows 'dismissed' as the outcome...
I am curious as to why it would even show up, if it was "dismissed". Maybe an attorney could help him with that?

I understand your unwillingness to go to an attorney to get this expunged from his record (because it did happen, and why would you want to say that it didn't happen when it did?), but (as I have found before) the attorneys around the Forum would counsel you to do just that. They would say that since this option is available and legal, why would you not do it?

To me, there is a dilemma, there. To an attorney, there is not. This is why if I need legal advice, I don't pay any attention to what my "gut" tells me, and talk with an attorney.
 
I am curious as to why it would even show up, if it was "dismissed". Maybe an attorney could help him with that?
Dismissed is not expunged. It's also my understanding that a security check can still see expunged charges, but that's hearsay.
 
not a s@int,

This is a bit off topic but I was just curious, if your son has an appointment to WP why did he enlist in the Army Reserve and go to BCT.

I'm surprised given that you said the store management thought highly of your son and realized what his goals were, that they didn't just handle the situation within the store by simply terminating him without getting the Police involved.
 
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