NJROTC Orienteering

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NJROTC-CC

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My DS will soon be a rising sophomore at a high scho0l with a championship 200+ cadet NJROTC unit. He loves NJROTC. He spends every day after school training with his unit for drill and athletic competition. He is on the orienteering team and went to Orienteering Nationals in California this year with his team. He is striving to eventually become orienteering team captain and also to attain an additional staff position in the JROTC unit. To add to his training, and for fun, he enters 5K's on his own about once a month (or as often as I give him the entry fee $$). I expect that by junior year he will be able to slam the CFA at the rate he is training. However, orienteering is not a varsity sport. Will this hurt his application? Should he go out for another sport (baseball, that he played from age 6-14), or cross-country? If he would go out for another sport it would take time away from JROTC, which he LOVES, and which he does every day after school until about 5-5:30. He does need time to do homework too. My gut says that to go out for a sport just to look good on an application is the wrong thing to do. He is happy with his current regimen.

P.S. - My DS has gotten WAY more out of NJROTC is terms of leadership and physical training than he did playing travel baseball. He was a pitcher. I have no idea how a 90 m.p.h. fastball would be of any value to the USN.
 
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Hey GaitherDad. I was in a very similar position to your DS. I was in a similar caliber NJROTC Unit and I too competed in National Orienteering and Drill competitions. It is very hard to predict what is the "most successful" path and no one has a perfect formula for USNA admissions so I will just speak from my own experiences. I'll start off with just looking at statistics in the sense that the USNA class profile in recent years has about 10%-20% of the incoming mid's with NJROTC experience and about 80%-90% of incoming mid's with a varsity sport (those are roughly the percentages don't exactly quote me). That said, it does not mean that a highly involved NJROTC cadet has only a 10-20% chance at acceptance. What it comes down to is what has your DS done on those drill/orienteering teams, the leadership experiences/challenges he's faced, and the many other factors of his admission profile. The application process has a lot of opportunities for kids with NJROTC to showcase those experiences through essay's and activity involvement records. I've personally held positions such as Company Commander, Athletics Officer, Drill Team Commander but also ran 3 seasons of varsity cross country with other activities like boy scouts/part time job. My opinion on the process now that I have an Offer of Appointment is that being well rounded is VERY important. Always have a priority on grades/SAT/ACT and then the extracurriculars there down. It certainly would not hurt if your DS went for cross country (by the time he'll take his CFA it'll be at the end of his season and he will blow it out of the water), but he can't go out for the sport with the sole motivation of simply adding another thing to his resume because he will burn out/ not enjoy it. Again, there is no cookie cutter recipe for gaining admission into the Academy and sometimes you just have to take what you have, run with it, and make the most of it! I know people who have gotten in with just NJROTC and exceptional grades (4.0 GPA and 1500+ SAT), and have seen kids not get in with NJROTC, marksmanship (varsity sport), and adequate grades (1250-1450 SAT). At the end of the day if he wants to get in, put maximum effort into all of his activities and leave nothing on the table. Good luck!

PS: Don't rule out NROTC scholarship and feel free to PM with any more questions.
 
I can only comment as to a hypothetical situation if I were on the Admissions Board (which I am most certainly not!). If that were the case, I would find something like this to be a bit "different" from other applicants. That "different" is a good kind of different, I think. I can tell you that from a ground-based warfighter standpoint, the ability to find your way through the countryside to ultimately find a target, is a good thing. Orienteering (Land Navigation) is a good skill to master. Maybe not so much for a SWO, but certainly for a Marine. ;) I always tell people to do what they love. Life is too short to do what you think you ought to do.

He will be a sophomore, so I think he either continues on with what he likes to do, or changes course to get into Varsity Sports. In the application, they look at his first six (6) semesters of High School, so he has only finished the first third of it. Rather than just running in 5K races for fun, could he not join the Cross Country team and still run some of those races for fun? If he's good, it could help the team. If he's not good, the training will make him better. It's a win-win.
 
He could join the cross-country team but i personally think he will get more out of using his time to try to make Cadet Commander of his NJROTC unit. They get PLENTY of PT in JROTC, far more than in most team sports. He could be ON a varsity sports team, but if he is not a star, i don’t see what he would get out of it that he doesn’t get out of NJROTC. Certainly not leadership sitting on the bench. The USNA should be looking for leaders who are fit and that is what my DS is. If they do not recognize that, it will be the Navy’s loss.
 
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GaitherDad said:
He could join the cross-country team but i personally think he will get more out of using his time to try to make Cadet Commander of his NJROTC unit. They get PLENTY of PT in JROTC, far more than in most team sports. He could be ON a varsity sports team, but if he is not a star, i don’t see what he would get out of it that he doesn’t get out of NJROTC. Certainly not leadership sitting on the bench. The USNA should be looking for leaders who are fit and that is what my DS is. If they do not recognize that, it will be the Navy’s loss.
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Getting Cadet Commander is a high honor, and while that does stand out, adding a varsity sport in the mix will help bolster his application and resume. I'm in AFJROTC right now, but I run cross country and track which helps show my time management skills. Taking into consideration that the overwhelming majority of cadets participated in varsity sports in high school, it may be in the best interest to do both, regardless of the amount of PT they may get in NJROTC.
 
There is no easy answer.... OP son appears to have a good start, and leading orienteering and NJROTC are good tickets. However, USNA doesn't publish the algorithm or points under the WCS for particular activities, so no one can tell you how DS compares to , say for example, Eagle Scout, Class President, 3 sport athlete (and team Captain), etc. Each candidate is different, and there is no "secret recipe" for a successful application. My advice is to focus on what he likes to do, avoid chasing a resume, and present the best application you can.
 
My son is the Corps Commander of his AFJROTC, plays two varsity sports, captain of one of them for two years. Advanced to states two years for wrestling. Took several AP and Honors courses. Did many leadership activities the summer before his senior year including Boys State, had a GPA of 4.0 and a decent SAT score (1300). Maxed a couple of the CFA items and was above average on the rest. Attended the CVW and Seal Wrestling camp at the NA and didn't get an offer of appointment. Not trying to be a Debbie downer, just trying to express that you just don't know what they are looking for. The competition is fierce to say the least. I agree with THParent - let him Do what he loves! I wish your son the best of luck.
 
GaitherDad said:
He could join the cross-country team but i personally think he will get more out of using his time to try to make Cadet Commander of his NJROTC unit. They get PLENTY of PT in JROTC, far more than in most team sports. He could be ON a varsity sports team, but if he is not a star, i don’t see what he would get out of it that he doesn’t get out of NJROTC. Certainly not leadership sitting on the bench. The USNA should be looking for leaders who are fit and that is what my DS is. If they do not recognize that, it will be the Navy’s loss.
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I get that you think that they get "plenty of PT" in JROTC but I've seen lots of folks who do "plenty of PT" who can't pass, much less excel on the PRT. There are mids who go all the way through Plebe summer which is many times more PT per day than JROTC and they struggle with and some fail the PRT. A competitive sports team will almost always push to higher levels of performance than group PT and in the case of a Cross Country team, it is a totally different level of effort.
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Feel free to discount what I'm telling you as you clearly know a lot about JROTC which is more than me. I'm just a USNA grad, Blue and Gold Officer for 28 years and the parent of a grad as well as a Retired Naval Officer who worked with Sailors, Junior Officers and ROTC cadets/units for many years.
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By the way, the summer after my son's Sophmore year in HS, I happened to be at USNA for some BGO stuff and my son called me and said that he had the opportunity to become the Drum Major for the Marching Band (biggest ECA in the School - close to a hundred kids) or Captain of Cross Country but could not do both and he wanted my opinion on which would be better for his USNA candidacy. I posed the question to the folks I was at dinner with which were 8 or so experienced BGOs and it was unanamous that he should do the Cross Country captaincy.
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I've had candidates who were Battalion Commanders of their JROTC units who did not get appointments to USNA. I recognize that many people think that JROTC gets a lot of application credit because it is "military" but that is just not what I've seen thus far in my time at and involved with USNA. If I were in your shoes, I'd suggest that you son do both Cross Country and JROTC together. After Cross Country season, continue as a distance runner on the track team.
 
OldRetSWO said:
I recognize that many people think that JROTC gets a lot of application credit because it is "military" but that is just not what I've seen thus far in my time at and involved with USNA
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I concur with the comment that participating in military organizations, like NJROTC or CAP, don't in themselves carry a whole lot of weight. They do provide leadership opportunities, and what you do with those opportunities do have greater weight than the fact they are affiliated with the military.

Look at the recent Class profiles on the USNA.edu website, and it is obvious that Varsity Sports/Team Captain are common factor. JROTC participation is significantly lower.
 
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NJROTC/Orienteering takes a lot of time for sure .... But, I think the youngster should at least add "Cross Country" to his schedule, as other folks here have suggested. The Senior Instructor in his NJROTC unit understands that his students will have meet conflicts and so on.
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You said that he already runs 5Ks. Why not start practicing with Long Distance XC/Track athletes. Usually the XC coach doubles as a spring track coach.
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I think all kids (everyone) should be proficient on at least one musical instrument too (Soft skill) .... Piano is usually the starting point for kids 5 years and up .... If the Kid can play the entire Chopin song book, then the Kid gets an Appointment in my eyes.
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Old Navy BGO said:
OldRetSWO said:
I recognize that many people think that JROTC gets a lot of application credit because it is "military" but that is just not what I've seen thus far in my time at and involved with USNA
Click to expand...

I concur with the comment that participating in military organizations, like NJROTC or CAP, don't in themselves carry a whole lot of weight. They do provide leadership opportunities, and what you do with those opportunities do have greater weight than the fact they are affiliated with the military.

Look at the recent Class profiles on the USNA.edu website, and it is obvious that Varsity Sports/Team Captain are common factor. JROTC participation is significantly lower.
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I accept that what you are saying is true and I realize that approximately 90% of entering Mids played a varsity sport in high school. I will encourage my DS to go out for cross-country based on what I am reading and I thank your for your advise.

However, that being said, I think it is very unfortunate that Jr. ROTC is not given more credit than it is due. The cadets are constantly tested on situps, pullups, mile runs, etc. Right now, they are training hard for some summer boot camps including "Basic Leadership Training." They are required to do community service. They do fundraising throughout the year. They compete about twice a month in athletic and drill competitions around the state. My son's battalion has over 200 cadets and the leadership opportunities are tremendous. My brother was an Eagle Scout and he credits the leadership he got in scouting with his business success. He led a troop of maybe 30-40 kids. Our high school NJROTC unit has over 200 cadets. Much more leadership opportunity. We are reigning national champions in Academic/Dril/Athletic competition. We have females who do over 100 pushups and situps. My son will max out most of the stations in the CFA at the rate he is training.

My son played travel baseball and pitched until last year when he was 14. However, we live in one of the top 5 populous states, in the south, and baseball is HIGHLY competitive. Our school is a Division 7A school with over 3000 students. High School baseball would be a waste of time for my son. He would be riding the pines. If we lived in some "Podunk" state in a town with like 5o kids in a high school graduation class (I know people who did that), I have no doubt that my son would be the captain of the football, baseball and track team. But how is that relevant? Anyone can be on varsity teams in a small school. I have seen that myself. By the same token, there are small schools where the JROTC unit is tiny and they don't even enter team competitions with other schools. I would say that such experience has limited value. My hope is that when my DS applies, that he can convey in his essays how much he got out of NJROTC and why his school is/was extraordinary and that the admissions folks drill down to see what he is all about and not just what boxes he checked. Anyone can check the box "played varsity sport" and so, I guess he will go out for cross county and check the box.
 
GaitherDad said:
I accept that what you are saying is true and I realize that approximately 90% of entering Mids played a varsity sport in high school. I will encourage my DS to go out for cross-country based on what I am reading and I thank your for your advise.

However, that being said, I think it is very unfortunate that Jr. ROTC is not given more credit than it is due. The cadets are constantly tested on situps, pullups, mile runs, etc. Right now, they are training hard for some summer boot camps including "Basic Leadership Training." They are required to do community service. They do fundraising throughout the year. They compete about twice a month in athletic and drill competitions around the state. My son's battalion has over 200 cadets and the leadership opportunities are tremendous. My brother was an Eagle Scout and he credits the leadership he got in scouting with his business success. He led a troop of maybe 30-40 kids. Our high school NJROTC unit has over 200 cadets. Much more leadership opportunity. We are reigning national champions in Academic/Dril/Athletic competition. We have females who do over 100 pushups and situps. My son will max out most of the stations in the CFA at the rate he is training.

My son played travel baseball and pitched until last year when he was 14. However, we live in one of the top 5 populous states, in the south, and baseball is HIGHLY competitive. Our school is a Division 7A school with over 3000 students. High School baseball would be a waste of time for my son. He would be riding the pines. If we lived in some "Podunk" state in a town with like 5o kids in a high school graduation class (I know people who did that), I have no doubt that my son would be the captain of the football, baseball and track team. But how is that relevant? Anyone can be on varsity teams in a small school. I have seen that myself. By the same token, there are small schools where the JROTC unit is tiny and they don't even enter team competitions with other schools. I would say that such experience has limited value. My hope is that when my DS applies, that he can convey in his essays how much he got out of NJROTC and why his school is/was extraordinary and that the admissions folks drill down to see what he is all about and not just what boxes he checked. Anyone can check the box "played varsity sport" and so, I guess he will go out for cross county and check the box.
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Don’t discount ‘just playing a varsity sport’. Untrue that ‘anyone can do it’. Or the level of PT a sport kid gets. Wrestlers, football players are brutes!! They are in the gym 0500 lifting weights, do a full day of school, leave for a game from school, play a hard 3 hours getting home finally at 2300 to eat, shower and hit the books. At least at our school. There’s more to it than you describe.

My advice is to do what he enjoys, and avoid downplaying other things to bolster his own. IOW, stay away from the ‘why nots’, and emphasize the positives in the ‘whys’.

There’s tons of debate here on the forums about many other things that ‘should be highly valued’ over sports (theater, band, piano...). But fact if the matter is USNA looks for attributes they want in a candidate. Can’t talk them into something else. NOT saying JR ROTC doesn’t hold them. I am saying USNA has a proven record of desiring varsity sports.
 
I agree with those of the opinion to continue JROTC AND go out for XC. As a past JROTC member, I also realize what a great program it is and am glad to hear the OP DS is doing so well with it and encourage him to continue. As far as the SA presumably not “weighting/scoring “ JROTC as much as a Varsity sport, I don’t know, and can understand the OP disagreeing if that is indeed the case.
It’s been said that Boys State is scored the same leadership points as Eagle Scout (my DS is both) and I disagree with that scoring , and feel Eagle is a higher achievement. But my opinion doesn’t matter.

Hopefully your DS attitude will be more inclined to thriving in XC and not just “checking a box”. It will be an additional great opportunity for him if he treats it as one.
As a side note, there are many examples on SAF of kids with busier schedules and more EC’s than the OP stated, and they seem to fit it all in and excel. Every candidate has different opportunities some more, some less. It’s what they do with what’s available to them that the SA admissions looks at and evaluates.

Not every path to an Academy is the same, so what makes a Candidate stand out above their competition and more worthy of that appointment than the rest of them ?
 
GaitherDad said:
However, that being said, I think it is very unfortunate that Jr. ROTC is not given more credit than it is due. The cadets are constantly tested on situps, pullups, mile runs, etc. Right now, they are training hard for some summer boot camps including "Basic Leadership Training." They are required to do community service. They do fundraising throughout the year. They compete about twice a month in athletic and drill competitions around the state. My son's battalion has over 200 cadets and the leadership opportunities are tremendous. My brother was an Eagle Scout and he credits the leadership he got in scouting with his business success. He led a troop of maybe 30-40 kids. Our high school NJROTC unit has over 200 cadets. Much more leadership opportunity. We are reigning national champions in Academic/Dril/Athletic competition. We have females who do over 100 pushups and situps. My son will max out most of the stations in the CFA at the rate he is training.

My son played travel baseball and pitched until last year when he was 14. However, we live in one of the top 5 populous states, in the south, and baseball is HIGHLY competitive. Our school is a Division 7A school with over 3000 students. High School baseball would be a waste of time for my son. He would be riding the pines. If we lived in some "Podunk" state in a town with like 5o kids in a high school graduation class (I know people who did that), I have no doubt that my son would be the captain of the football, baseball and track team. But how is that relevant? Anyone can be on varsity teams in a small school. I have seen that myself. By the same token, there are small schools where the JROTC unit is tiny and they don't even enter team competitions with other schools. I would say that such experience has limited value. My hope is that when my DS applies, that he can convey in his essays how much he got out of NJROTC and why his school is/was extraordinary and that the admissions folks drill down to see what he is all about and not just what boxes he checked. Anyone can check the box "played varsity sport" and so, I guess he will go out for cross county and check the box.
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Sorry, but in my opinion you are not seeing things correctly. The Academies want to see the best of the best. If your son was good at baseball then why did he not face up to the challenge of making himself good enough for varsity? Backing down and saying that "he would have been riding the pines" is not the winning attitude needed.

Honestly, my USAFA grad son is now in an occupation where he trains to kill other people, and at the same time is trying not to let the other guy kill him. Second place is death. Think about that. The only way to go into that situation is to know that you will be the winner. That is the military's job.

That is why the Academies think so highly of varsity sports and especially the big sports like football, basketball, and baseball. Candidates who have been in highly competitive physical situations tend to do better in the military. They have that sense already developing from high school sports.

Stealth_81
 
“On the fields of friendly strife are sown the seeds that on other days, on other fields will bear the fruits of victory.” -General Douglas MacArthur

This is a great example of the thinking behind the importance of varsity sports in candidate's applications, with particular emphasis on contact sports like football, basketball, lacrosse, hockey, etc.

I've always agreed with that line of thinking, but here is an interesting article by a West Pointer with a contrary view:
https://mwi.usma.edu/201496sports-and-military-leadership/

Interesting discussion, but it doesn't change the reality that SA's look for and expect varsity sports, and successful candidates without varsity sports are outliers.
 
A6E Dad said:
I've always agreed with that line of thinking, but here is an interesting article by a West Pointer with a contrary view:
https://mwi.usma.edu/201496sports-and-military-leadership/

Interesting discussion, but it doesn't change the reality that SA's look for and expect varsity sports, and successful candidates without varsity sports are outliers.
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The Twain quote in the WP contrarian OpEd is good: “It ain’t what you know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”
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I know this discussion has focused on sports and ECAs. I am a believer in doing what one enjoys. The bottom line is your DS has to do these activities. He can balance the odds and evaluate what his passions are with pursuing this path. I respect you are helping guide him and thanks for joining the forum. The class profiles speak for themselves. The SAs weigh things differently, but guessing not all that different. The SAs have done this a long time and are constantly evaluating what makes a ‘successful Mid.’ Every applicant is different and brings different strengths. Highlighting them and telling their story and experiences is crucial through LORs, essays and interviews.

Now to look at it from the academic side. You tended to focus on the challenges of a large school and it came across as if you think maybe a candidate from a smaller school has advantage because they can be a 3 sport star. Sure that might be the case, but going to a large school can also mean tons of opportunities those kids don’t get. More AP courses, IB path, more ECAs and teams, higher and more classes offered. Regardless of all state whatever, bottom line is none of that will overcome an inferior academic record. Take the hardest classes the school offers, because that is what USNA will look at. Academics will keep someone out of the running well before they debate the rest of it.

USNA evaluates a school profile. Saying, I didn’t go out for baseball because I would of Rode the pine... not an answer a BGO or MOC board will buy off on. Probably lead to more questions. You don’t have to be a super star or Captain, although it helps. There are lots of lessons to learn from being on a team sport that one can’t learn in an individual sport. I believe in doing what one enjoys, but at the end of the day, your DS has to do these things and live with the TWE/BFE at the end. By being on this board and a class profile you are seeing the quality of candidates. He has two key years to map out a path for his application, sometimes that means making decisions you eventually have to live with. Good luck to your DS, look forward to hearing how his next few years go.
 
NavyHoops said:
Saying, I didn’t go out for baseball because I would of Rode the pine... not an answer a BGO or MOC board will buy off on. Probably lead to more questions. You don’t have to be a super star or Captain, although it helps. There are lots of lessons to learn from being on a team sport that one can’t learn in an individual sport.
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I totally agree and I am both a BGO and a MOC interviewer. While being a "star" with All State/All area type recognition is certainly a plus, I mostly look at years of varsity PARTICIPATION.

By the way, I "rode the pine" plenty in my sport at USNA as I had some very talented teammates as evidenced by recognition on All America teams, Olympic teams, CISM (world military) championships, etc. I was one of the people pushing them every day in practice which made us all better. For sure, I did get to compete on a number of occasions but I definitely was not one of the front line folks but I still showed up and tried my hardest right up till I graduated.
In my mind, much of the military relies on teamwork and team sports are a good way to get the proper mindset. Even sports like tennis or gymnastics where the competitor is out there alone involve a team along with the range of team interactions, etc. FWIW, my son was not the fastest runner on his Cross Country or Track teams for any of his years of High School but the coach still chose him to be captain of both. He was much better as a student then as an athlete but still managed to be a leader on his teams.
 
GaitherDad said:
He could join the cross-country team but i personally think he will get more out of using his time to try to make Cadet Commander of his NJROTC unit. They get PLENTY of PT in JROTC, far more than in most team sports. He could be ON a varsity sports team, but if he is not a star, i don’t see what he would get out of it that he doesn’t get out of NJROTC. Certainly not leadership sitting on the bench. The USNA should be looking for leaders who are fit and that is what my DS is. If they do not recognize that, it will be the Navy’s loss.
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How’s it going sir. Although I see that you do seem to have an opinion I just wanted to add a few things if I may. It is to my understanding that the academy looks at things at a case-by-case basis to assess each application which takes in consideration type of school (private,home-school, public) and types of opportunities afforded. If he is a great runner I would suggest cross country. Most programs cover AT a minimum of 15 miles a week to at least 30 in which he will get plenty of PT. If running is is passion I would say go for it! Also if he has a 90 mph fastball I would also consider that as a possible “in” to the academy as he could earn the coveted “blue chip”. Regardless he will have to work hard and should do whatever he feels is right for himself but I believe there are many opportunities and the academy is looking for well rounded individuals who shine in a few areas. I was fortunate enough to be my schools AFJROTC Corps commander as well as run cross country, wrestling, and track. That being said I was doing it because I loved it, not “to get in to the academy”. I don’t think belonging to other programs will hurt his chances at a staff position but it wouldn’t hurt to talk to his JROTC Instructor and be transparent about his goals and how he can get there. As long as he works hard regardless of what he does and has a passion for what he does I am sure he will succeed! Best luck and wishes,
Very Respectfully
a kid very nervous for plebe summer!
 
Great day today. DS went out for Cross Country practice and met the coach. Coach said he loves having NJROTC kids on the cross country team and will understand if JROTC activites conflict with cross country. They practice all sumner at 7:00 a.m. five days a week and run about 4 miles before breakfast. Well, even if DS does not make USNA, at least he will be fit. Only a sophomore, so long road ahead.
 
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