Honor Concept

2

23Lt

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Sep 24, 2016
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Hey everyone! I'm curious/confused about USNA's honor concept especially about the idea of "tolerance of those who do". This language was not used on the website and also not on the form we signed in the PTR.

USMA and USAFA use this language but USNA doesn't. I've also heard things about how MIDN counsel each other and give violators a second chance? Not sure if this is true.

I've also heard some changes have been made with VADM Carter during his tenure.

Could someone shed some light about this? I really appreciate it!
 
You are correct, the "tolerate" language is not included in the USNA Honor "Concept".

I'm not sure what "light" you are looking for. Volumes could be (and probably have been) written about the virtues of USNA Honor "Concept" v. the USMA/USAFA Honor "Code". There is a comment about the Honor Concept at the USNA.edu website. Beyond that, you will receive extensive instruction regarding the Honor Concept during Plebe Summer and your entire stay at USNA.
 
Usually not a lot press around it. Been a few articles over the years. Lots of various opinions on how honor violations are handled. Every Supt is different also.
 
Informal counseling is an option if it is the mid's first offense and the accuser believes that mid shows true remorse for what they did. Many mids will try to stop someone from potentially committing an honor offense, but once someone does violate the honor concept, very few will actually report it, even if the act is egregious. From my experience, the accuser in the majority of honor cases is a professor or officer. Some get away with honor violations, I think in part because of our lack of a toleration clause. Unfortunately, the culture in the Brigade is such that if you report something you will be ridiculed by your peers.
 
promethium said:
Informal counseling is an option if it is the mid's first offense and the accuser believes that mid shows true remorse for what they did. Many mids will try to stop someone from potentially committing an honor offense, but once someone does violate the honor concept, very few will actually report it, even if the act is egregious. From my experience, the accuser in the majority of honor cases is a professor or officer. Some get away with honor violations, I think in part because of our lack of a toleration clause. Unfortunately, the culture in the Brigade is such that if you report something you will be ridiculed by your peers.
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Thank you for the info
 
One of the outgoing Supe’s main initiatives was returning the spotlight to the honor concept, clarifying its meaning and practice, and ensuring it remained very central to mids’ lives.

An area of focus was informal counseling, which was to be reduced and replaced with actual enforcement of the honor concept. Don’t know how that turned out or if statistics can truly point at whether impact was to the good (numbers can be deceiving).

In any case, whether it’s honor code at USMA or honor concept at USNA, haven’t seen any evidence that one place is better or worse than the other based on definition or treatment of this aspect.
 
It really doesn't matter what Service Academy we're talking about, as there are always some bad eggs in all of them. Hopefully, they get turned around or weeded out, early.
 
Back in my day, at USMA, if you knew of an honor offense and didn't turn them in then you would have committed an offense as well. Generally what happened was you would talk with someone about what they did directly and then they would turn themselves in. It definitely put honor above friendship or anything else.
 
billyb said:
if you knew of an honor offense and didn't turn them in then you would have committed an offense as well
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That is one of the major differences between USNA and other Service Academies. We have more discretion, although to be clear, doing nothing is not one of the appropriate alternatives. As I have pointed out in other contexts here, the Navy has a history of granting officers greater autonomy and use of discretion to suit the circumstances rather than lockstep adherence to fixed doctrine. I'm not trying to start a debate about the merits of different honor codes v. USNA honor concept, that's just the way it is. There are a lot of nuances and different scenarios, and Midshipmen get extensive training throughout their time at USNA.
 
I agree with Old Navy BGO on what I experienced at USNA and the fleet. Not sure what the rules are now, but when I was at USNA if you didn’t report someone for an honor violation it was considered a conduct offense. Turning in someone for an honor violation was a big deal and there were very differing opinions in the Brigade. On one hand, you are taught to never bilge a classmate. Does that include honor... depends on who you talk to. During my time at USNA, a guilty honor offense, nearly always meant being kicked out. It was rare for someone to make it through that. We had an honor case in my company. It was a clear cut lie. Both room mates had told their other room mate to not do it to include telling him he would be turned in for an honor violation. He still did. They turned him in. Our company was divided in half for it. It was ugly. I say this for those who are looking to go this route, the honor concept on the surface seems simple. But only those who have lived or are living in the halls of Bancroft can really understand the intricacies of it all.
 
NavyHoops said:
I agree with Old Navy BGO on what I experienced at USNA and the fleet. Not sure what the rules are now, but when I was at USNA if you didn’t report someone for an honor violation it was considered a conduct offense.
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I believe it was charged as "Dereliction of Duty"
 
We are all taught to be a good classmate and not be the Buddy Fxxx but as @NavyHoops puts it reading about it and actually living under it are two totally different things. The toleration component of the honor code at the other academies helps flip the script some when it comes to honor. If you commit an honor violation, you may put your friends and classmates in very awkward positions if they talk to you about it and you do not self-report. Beside impacting your future, you are also impacting their future.
 
So from what I've read on this thread: committing an honor offense not only hurts you but hurts your classmates as well. No matter if the violation is as small as saying you did 2 more pushups than you actually did on your PRT, or something big as cheating on a final.
 
23Lt,

It is always good to look at the "big picture" and put the Honor Concept (or Code) into context. Lying, cheating, or stealing erodes at trust -- the military is built on trust. If one will lie about two pushups or cut-the-corners on a test, what else is someone willing to lie/cheat/cut corners on? What about when people's lives and the mission is on the line?

Surely, lying about two pushups or cheating on a test really doesn't significantly impact anyone else....but the bigger concern is what is mentioned above. That is why honor is (and should be) emphasized and held to a high standard at any service academy.

In EVERY BGO interview I have done, I play out a similar scene to what NavyHoops described, simply for the reason that was stated....it is easy to say "turn them in," when in reality it could be (1) your roommate, best friend, etc. and/or (2) the ramifications/peer pressure that might result by turning someone in. It is definitely easier said than done. To my surprise, in many interviews candidates have not quickly gone to the "turn them in" answer and it leads into a good discussion about honor. Of course, each SA will provide training and the appropriate method(s) to resolve the issue.
 
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