Former USMA Cadet's rape conviction overturned

Interesting case and discussion. I came across this forum in the context of reading about this case. I read through the first thread and this one. Sledge and “whale” were both arguing fairly effectively presumption of innocence.

It seems that we’ve gotten a bit caught up of late in believing one gender over another in these sorts of cases.

Often motives can be obscure.

I found the discussion about the justice system and how one should view guilt and innocence at its hands disheartening to an extent. Witness testimony generally sucks. People view truth based on nonverbals, how attractive is the speaker, how confident. If all you’ve got is a witness, you don’t have a lot, not without corroborating data.

Look at the Kavanaugh case and how the accuser was judged and how Kavanaugh was judged based on political affiliation of the beholder. The same probably holds here. Those that are, rightfully so, concerned with justice for rape victims, tend toward presumption of guilt. That’s not how our justice system is supposed to work. Presumption of innocence necessarily results in guilty parties walking free. But, that’s a price that we should probably all be willing to pay. The alternative is less pretty.

The justice system doesn’t get it right frequently. It’s an imperfect system and results often favor who has the most resources or the best gift at presenting information.
 
Not saying this happened in this case, but I wonder in these type of circumstances is that both parties honestly see the same event in different ways. I dont mean that he raped her and thinks to himself that it isnt rape because she wanted it or deserved it. Rather at some point it was consentual in both their heads but at some point it stopped being consentual in her head but that never came across to him. Same kind of thing happened to Aziz Nazari, the comedian. While he was never accused of rape, the lady he was with a became completely uncomfortable with what they were doing but she never complained to him about it. She complained that she gave him some non verbal hints that she was unhappy about what they were doing and he never picked up on it. The easy answer in this case is since cadets are never supposed to have sex with each other, so no one can accuse another of rape. How realistic that is, I dont know. The problem with a rape charge is that meaning of rape has become somewhat fluid. Honestly, anyone attacking and raping anyone should be hurt badly but then you have a case of both a male and female being completely drunk, having sex and the female regrettting it and charging rape. Although both parties were drunk, only the man is charged with rape. I dont understand how that even makes sense. I think i read that if a drunk man is physcially able to perform, then it is his fault. Again I dont get it. It is these type of situations that creates the problem of people arguing over a rape charge. If this guy got into her sleeping bag without permission and raped her, then he deserves the 21 years and maybe more. If they were together fooling around and it went further than she wanted, It is another story. Not saying he shouldnt be punished for it, but maybe not 21 years.
 
The rule isn’t that Mids or Cadets can’t sleep sleep with one another. Plenty do. They can’t while in the barracks or a field op like this situation.
 
Why is this a such big deal? Not a first time a higher court overturned a lower court’s decision.
 
QA1517 said:
My question to this situation is should he return to West Point, could he in turn be found guilty of a conduct violation and dismissed on those grounds?
Just curious.
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I would seriously doubt that he would want to return to WP. IMO he has been branded as a rapist in many of his future collegue's eyes to say nothing of the fact that he is now two yrs junior to his former peer. I do not see how the Army can "Make him Whole" again at this point.
 
OldRetSWO said:
I would seriously doubt that he would want to return to WP. IMO he has been branded as a rapist in many of his future collegue's eyes to say nothing of the fact that he is now two yrs junior to his former peer. I do not see how the Army can "Make him Whole" again at this point.
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He probably won’t, but I wish he would, if for nothing else than to put a stick in the eye of all purveyors of the “West Point is so rapey” canard.

Wouldn’t it be heart warming to see him awarded the Henry O. Flipper award for courage in the face of institutional adversity as was his accuser.
 
These cases that are not cut and dry are horrible.
On the one hand you have the potential of a victim not seeing justice. On the other hand, you have the potential of seeing an innocent young man’s life ruined.
 
You all like to make a lot of assumptions. The army appeals court overturned this verdict without hearing a single witness. Their thinking is outdated. It stretches credulity to imagine advances were welcome in the field. The original jury trial was quite long. Have any of you followed the Congressional hearings on this matter? I will link that next. Would you be cool with this man returning to your daughters class? Because I’m sure as hell not https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ms-dont-fight-or-yell/?utm_term=.14b741b3596c
 
xyz321 said:
You all like to make a lot of assumptions. The army appeals court overturned this verdict without hearing a single witness. Their thinking is outdated. It stretches credulity to imagine advances were welcome in the field. The original jury trial was quite long. Have any of you followed the Congressional hearings on this matter? I will link that next. Would you be cool with this man returning to your daughters class? Because I’m sure as hell not https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ms-dont-fight-or-yell/?utm_term=.14b741b3596c
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My DD is at West Point and has conflicting feelings about this entire case and does not feel it is as cut and dry as you try to make it sound. If you would like to discuss how she feels about him possibly returning off line I’d be more than willing to do so.
 
jebdad said:
Sledge, that's a bunch of garbage. You should be ashamed of yourself and if you have a daughter in these situations, you will learn that apparently physical evidence and live testimony is trumped by three dudes reviewing the information and listening to the jailed defendant. Sad, sad, sad.....

“We have carefully reviewed the evidence and, taking into consideration that the panel saw and heard the witnesses and we did not, we nevertheless conclude that appellant’s convictions are factually insufficient,” according to a written decision by three military judges.

or, how about this jem: "In our view, the circumstantial evidence in support of this defense theory severely undercuts the government’s case.”
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LOL. 2 of the 3 appellate JUDGES were females. Diedra Fleming and Paulette Burton. But, it's so much easier to stay on narrative if you don't wait for facts to come out.

Here is the opinion - https://www.jagcnet.army.mil/Apps/ACCAOpinions/ACCAOpinions.nsf/SDD/9D44F1DBA14969548525840F00464C49/$FILE/sd-whisenhunt, jd.pdf


xyz321 said:
Would you be cool with this man returning to your daughters class? Because I’m sure as hell not https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ms-dont-fight-or-yell/?utm_term=.14b741b3596c
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If you don't fight when attacked, how can you possibly entreat the respect and obedience of fighting men in the profession of arms? Is "rape freeze" a legitimate handicap to be afforded to a slighter sex? Or are the sexes equal such that they can both can be combat arms officers? Those seem diametrically opposed in my opinion. Only through the lense of hypocrisy is it clear.
 
Sledge. Please reread your own post and reflect on how you might be perceived. And women can be wrong too. I still believe the process is flawed and needs to be removed from the chain of command. I hope my daughter is not exposed to people with your attitude. But sadly I know she will be
 
xyz321 said:
You all like to make a lot of assumptions. The army appeals court overturned this verdict without hearing a single witness. Their thinking is outdated. It stretches credulity to imagine advances were welcome in the field. The original jury trial was quite long. Have any of you followed the Congressional hearings on this matter? I will link that next. Would you be cool with this man returning to your daughters class? Because I’m sure as hell not https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ms-dont-fight-or-yell/?utm_term=.14b741b3596c
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Yes. The new thinking of believe someone because of their gender.

It’s entirely plausible she was raped or not raped. That is reasonable doubt. Yes, a freeze response is a legitimate response. Did it happen? You don’t know. Neither did the jury. Likely, they saw an athletic and competent young woman and found her credible. And, in the context of amplified attention to these matters, he was convicted on scant evidence. This appeal is not a slap against the young woman. It does not brand her a liar. Or, indicate that she was somehow bad or wrong. It is simply acknowledging that there was not sufficient evidence for a conviction. That’s not outdated. It’s not backward. It’s good.
 
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They found his semen in her sleeping bag. Do you all have evidence she consented? I doubt it
 
xyz321 said:
They found his semen in her sleeping bag. Do you all have evidence she consented? I doubt it
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How is the semen relevant to the question of whether consent occurred? Sexual activity was acknowledged.

Minimal evidence of consent (lack of noise, struggle... countered by freeze response) and minimal evidence of lack of consent. He said/she said.
 
She said she did not consent. And was believed in her trial. The appeals court did not hear witnesses. I maintain that the process is flawed. None of us , nor the appeals court, quite honestly, knows better than the original trial panel. The thinking here is an excellent example of why people don’t report and this problem flourishes
 
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