Drug use, to put or not put.

Perhaps some grace could be extended to moments of poor character exhibited by high schoolers prior to their accession to service.

There is plenty I did as a teenage minor that would have been frowned upon after my accession into the service.

There is a reason we teach the importance of core values in military training. They are not necessarily present before accession. As mentioned here by others, I also knew plenty of honorable and upstanding military members (including in the Marine Corps) during my junior enlisted years that struggled with the prior-service drug use question. I never questioned their integrity post-accession-- regardless of how they may have behaved prior to arriving at Basic.
 
I grew up in the 1960's. I never tried drugs, at all. Still to this day, I have never had a drug that wasn't prescribed to me by a Medical Doctor.

My DS didn't lie on his application, and when he is asked the same question over and over throughout his career as an officer, all he has to remember is the truth. I can guarantee that he doesn't care whatever someone else wrote on their application, either. What other people do - should not guide us in what we do - if it's not right.

But I am a Marine. That honor stuff is kind of important to me.

That’s good, you and your DS have integrity and are one of the few that uphold it. I guess my point is that the check box in the form about drug use is a terrible way to measure integrity. Nearly all my friends that were in my Rotc unit in the past and my friends who went to Marine PLC with me admit that they have used or experimented with drugs in the past but never checked yes in the box. I don’t agree with that, but they aren’t bad people.
No, they're probably nice people.

But they have acted dishonorably. They lied on an official government document: period. Check the UCMJ...here, I'll help you, it's in Article 107:

ARTICLE 107, UCMJ. FALSE OFFICIAL STATEMENTS
Any person subject to this chapter who, with intent to deceive, signs any false record, return, regulation, order, or other official document, knowing it to be false, or makes any other false official statement knowing it to be false, shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

You can be a "good person" and be dishonorable. You can be a "good person" and still commit a crime.

FYI...I've been part of MANY investigations where a candidate (ROTC and USAFA) said they "experimented" with illegal drugs. In literally dozens of instances, I've only seen a couple that were not "waived." Those were individuals that deemed "experimenting" to be "weekend use of weed, every weekend, for a year plus..." and one that said "I tried weed...then I tried coke...then I tried meth...I didn't like that...experiment over." He was not granted a waiver.

Rationalize it all you want, they acted dishonorably and violated military law.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83
 
So these friends that you keep mentioning... on their SF-86 what do they put down there? The application is one thing, the SF-86 is another. It’s been awhile since I did a background check, but I remember somehow raising my hand and swearing to the OPM investigator I was telling the truth. So, do they continue the lie, now under oath? What about when they renew years down the road? When you put your buddies down as references on the SF-86, are you going to call and ask them to lie if asked if they ever saw you use drugs? What about when one of them decides to become an FBI agent and goes through a lifestyle polygraph? We have seen in the media over the last decade or more where service members had compromised their integrity and gone for a CIA or secret service interview and these items come up. It opened large investigations. Where does the lie and slippery slope end? What other small lies are they willing to say or do? I am hoping candidates who are reading this can see the snowball effect of what this can do. If you experimented, just admit it. Plenty of kids who tried it a few times are at SAs and on scholarship. No one is perfect. Learn and move on.
 
I grew up in the 1960's. I never tried drugs, at all. Still to this day, I have never had a drug that wasn't prescribed to me by a Medical Doctor.

My DS didn't lie on his application, and when he is asked the same question over and over throughout his career as an officer, all he has to remember is the truth. I can guarantee that he doesn't care whatever someone else wrote on their application, either. What other people do - should not guide us in what we do - if it's not right.

But I am a Marine. That honor stuff is kind of important to me.

That’s good, you and your DS have integrity and are one of the few that uphold it. I guess my point is that the check box in the form about drug use is a terrible way to measure integrity. Nearly all my friends that were in my Rotc unit in the past and my friends who went to Marine PLC with me admit that they have used or experimented with drugs in the past but never checked yes in the box. I don’t agree with that, but they aren’t bad people.
No, they're probably nice people.

But they have acted dishonorably. They lied on an official government document: period. Check the UCMJ...here, I'll help you, it's in Article 107:

ARTICLE 107, UCMJ. FALSE OFFICIAL STATEMENTS
Any person subject to this chapter who, with intent to deceive, signs any false record, return, regulation, order, or other official document, knowing it to be false, or makes any other false official statement knowing it to be false, shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

You can be a "good person" and be dishonorable. You can be a "good person" and still commit a crime.

FYI...I've been part of MANY investigations where a candidate (ROTC and USAFA) said they "experimented" with illegal drugs. In literally dozens of instances, I've only seen a couple that were not "waived." Those were individuals that deemed "experimenting" to be "weekend use of weed, every weekend, for a year plus..." and one that said "I tried weed...then I tried coke...then I tried meth...I didn't like that...experiment over." He was not granted a waiver.

Rationalize it all you want, they acted dishonorably and violated military law.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

Right, so in your case that means they shouldn't be in the military. That means a good amount of people in the military today who have experimented with drugs which is probably around 60% should be discharged because they violated military law. Sounds about right.
 
So these friends that you keep mentioning... on their SF-86 what do they put down there? The application is one thing, the SF-86 is another. It’s been awhile since I did a background check, but I remember somehow raising my hand and swearing to the OPM investigator I was telling the truth. So, do they continue the lie, now under oath? What about when they renew years down the road? When you put your buddies down as references on the SF-86, are you going to call and ask them to lie if asked if they ever saw you use drugs? What about when one of them decides to become an FBI agent and goes through a lifestyle polygraph? We have seen in the media over the last decade or more where service members had compromised their integrity and gone for a CIA or secret service interview and these items come up. It opened large investigations. Where does the lie and slippery slope end? What other small lies are they willing to say or do? I am hoping candidates who are reading this can see the snowball effect of what this can do. If you experimented, just admit it. Plenty of kids who tried it a few times are at SAs and on scholarship. No one is perfect. Learn and move on.

They put the same thing. They won't admit on the SF86 that they have done drugs before. The recruiters and even the guy in charge of recruiting ROTC at my school told them not to put it on if it is not documented. We were told that OPM and NAC don't have time nor resources to accurately look through your whole entire background. It cost them to much. Unless you put it down they would just make sure you good standings. That is what my recruiter told me.
 
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I grew up in the 1960's. I never tried drugs, at all. Still to this day, I have never had a drug that wasn't prescribed to me by a Medical Doctor.

My DS didn't lie on his application, and when he is asked the same question over and over throughout his career as an officer, all he has to remember is the truth. I can guarantee that he doesn't care whatever someone else wrote on their application, either. What other people do - should not guide us in what we do - if it's not right.

But I am a Marine. That honor stuff is kind of important to me.

That’s good, you and your DS have integrity and are one of the few that uphold it. I guess my point is that the check box in the form about drug use is a terrible way to measure integrity. Nearly all my friends that were in my Rotc unit in the past and my friends who went to Marine PLC with me admit that they have used or experimented with drugs in the past but never checked yes in the box. I don’t agree with that, but they aren’t bad people.
No, they're probably nice people.

But they have acted dishonorably. They lied on an official government document: period. Check the UCMJ...here, I'll help you, it's in Article 107:

ARTICLE 107, UCMJ. FALSE OFFICIAL STATEMENTS
Any person subject to this chapter who, with intent to deceive, signs any false record, return, regulation, order, or other official document, knowing it to be false, or makes any other false official statement knowing it to be false, shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

You can be a "good person" and be dishonorable. You can be a "good person" and still commit a crime.

FYI...I've been part of MANY investigations where a candidate (ROTC and USAFA) said they "experimented" with illegal drugs. In literally dozens of instances, I've only seen a couple that were not "waived." Those were individuals that deemed "experimenting" to be "weekend use of weed, every weekend, for a year plus..." and one that said "I tried weed...then I tried coke...then I tried meth...I didn't like that...experiment over." He was not granted a waiver.

Rationalize it all you want, they acted dishonorably and violated military law.

Steve
USAFA ALO
USAFA '83

With that logic, I guess I shouldn't be in the military neither should my battle buddies, commanding officers, and etc. I guess that means Tbpxece and his friends should be discharged cause they violated military law. I have made bad choices before like nearly all people do when they are young. I grew up in a bad environment where drug use was a norm for people around me. I ve done it before, never did it again. I wanted to be in the military to pull myself out the bad environment that I was in. I checked no on the box because I didn't want to risk getting disqualified like my recruiter told me. Had I checked yes and ended up getting disqualified, well I guess Im a good person who has integrity but now I'm back in that bad environment that I wanted to get out of.
 
No I understand the honor Code throughly, I’ve been through Rotc and Marine Plc in the past and about to go again and honor and integrity are part of the values that make the military great. I don’t agree with lying at all, but my friends who have lied on the form and are in the military today are great leaders and lying on the checkbox does not define who they are today.

If you “don’t agree with lying at all,” you wouldn’t have made this post. That is indisputable. You have essentially stated that this particular lie is acceptable based on the totality of circumstances. I actually agree with the flaws you describe. People who have made a mistake with drug experimentation as a 16 year-old kid can be a good officer at 22. Perhaps the questions on the form should be more granular...no argument there. Having said that, a lie is still a lie and is unacceptable, unless there some serious extenuating circumstances (ie. Someone’s life is on the line at the hands of a criminal, etc). Furthermore, as good an officer as that 16 year old kid can be in the future, it is absolutely fair for the military to take the other great applicant who never touched drugs over the kid who did. There’s no shortage of applicants for commissioning programs. Plenty of awesome applicants have not made those mistakes. Mistakes at 16 (I’m picking 16 as a somewhat arbitrary age) don’t make someone a terrible person, but mistakes still have consequences. Lying to hide your past mistakes is not fair to those who have not made those mistakes.
 
Oh, man, can’t wait to see the look on DS’s face when I tell him it’s OK to lie on his upcoming college applications. Of course, there’ll be conditions. He’ll be required to answer the following three questions in the affirmative:

1) Do other applicants lie on their application?

2) Is there at least a little bit of truth to what you’re going to lie about?

3) Will telling this lie help get you exactly what you want — your absolute dream in life?

If he says “yes” to all three, then I’ll say, “By all means, lie away!” And then if things ultimately don’t work out, I’ll tell him not to worry. At least he still has his integrity.
 
Perhaps some grace could be extended to moments of poor character exhibited by high schoolers prior to their accession to service.

There is plenty I did as a teenage minor that would have been frowned upon after my accession into the service.

There is a reason we teach the importance of core values in military training. They are not necessarily present before accession. As mentioned here by others, I also knew plenty of honorable and upstanding military members (including in the Marine Corps) during my junior enlisted years that struggled with the prior-service drug use question. I never questioned their integrity post-accession-- regardless of how they may have behaved prior to arriving at Basic.

You mentioned reflective belts into battle, lol where do you see that?
 
I guess that means Tbpxece and his friends should be discharged cause they violated military law.
Careful here. Two things. (1) I did not violate military law or the UCMJ before my enlistment because I was not in the military at that point. (2) I have not stated that I lied about prior-service illicit drug usage (or that I have ever used illicit drugs).

My entire point is that I personally give grace to those that violate military ethos prior to the point that they join the military. Including lying about prior-service drug use. I do not extend that grace to post-service integrity violations. There is a before and after thing here.

Oh, man, can’t wait to see the look on DS’s face when I tell him it’s OK to lie on his upcoming college applications....
If he says “yes” to all three, then I’ll say, “By all means, lie away!” And then if things ultimately don’t work out, I’ll tell him not to worry. At least he still has his integrity.

I don't think that's an accurate interpretation of the opposing viewpoint at all. I also think that's a pretty unfair framing of the conversation. You still have time edit your post to temper that response-- would you consider doing so?
 
Tbpxece, your right cause you weren't in the military at the time. I guess that means OPs friends are in the same boat too if they filled out the form before service.
 
You mentioned reflective belts into battle, lol where do you see that?
Pretty much everywhere in the OEF AOR. AF personnel had to wear them on base-- but not into battle, thank goodness. Still really crazy in my opinion, considering we were still required to wear clothes that were designed to make us blend in to our surroundings.
 
Tbpxece, your right cause you weren't in the military at the time. I guess that means OPs friends are in the same boat too if they filled out the form before service.
Correct.

And on that note, I'm going to bow out of this conversation.
 
Either way, OP integrity and honesty is important. Don't worry to much on what other people do. That being said, integrity, the definition is doing what is right when no one else is looking. So even if you say yes on the check box, really no one cares about what you say. Your hard work is for yourself not for anyone else. Most of the people on this forum claim they are all about integrity but this a forum and we do not know of thats the case and we shouldn't care. Do what is right and go with your guts.
 
Oh, man, can’t wait to see the look on DS’s face when I tell him it’s OK to lie on his upcoming college applications. Of course, there’ll be conditions. He’ll be required to answer the following three questions in the affirmative:

1) Do other applicants lie on their application?

2) Is there at least a little bit of truth to what you’re going to lie about?

3) Will telling this lie help get you exactly what you want — your absolute dream in life?

If he says “yes” to all three, then I’ll say, “By all means, lie away!” And then if things ultimately don’t work out, I’ll tell him not to worry. At least he still has his integrity.
Literally don't understand the point of this post but ok.


You mentioned reflective belts into battle, lol where do you see that?
Pretty much everywhere in the OEF AOR. AF personnel had to wear them on base-- but not into battle, thank goodness. Still really crazy in my opinion, considering we were still required to wear clothes that were designed to make us blend in to our surroundings.

Wow thats interesting.

Im just going to tell others make good decisions in life so you don't need to worry about questioning integrity when it comes to the checkbox.
 
They put the same thing. They won't admit on the SF86 that they have done drugs before. The recruiters and even the guy in charge of recruiting ROTC at my school told them not to put it on if it is not documented. We were told that OPM and NAC don't have time nor resources to accurately look through your whole entire background. It cost them to much. Unless you put it down they would just make sure you good standings. That is what my recruiter told me.

Your recruiter is wrong and so is your MOI. If that is the guidance they are giving... I am appalled by it. Lying under oath and once you have raised your right hand does very much violate the UCMJ. Your justification of all this as the thread continues is actually getting worse. You are clearly advocating lying. Wondering what else you are willing to compromise on? To future candidates, answer the truth on the applications. It will make your lives much easier. You never know what your future may look like 5, 10, 15, 30 years from now. Don’t close the door on a future because you decided to cover up the fact you smoked something at 17 or are scared what mom and dad might say.
 
This will be a non-issue soon enough. The AF is already moving in the right direction.

Two quotes from that article (the second is a direct quote from Lt. Gen. Gina Grosso, deputy chief of staff for Air Force manpower, personnel and services):
(1) "Air Force admission sources were inconsistent on what timeframe was acceptable for prior marijuana use."
(2) "Some recruiters used if you smoked marijuana less than five times, sometimes it was less than 15 times...."What we decided to do is stop asking [about] prior marijuana use at the recruiter level," she said, because "first of all, who really counts how many times they've used marijuana? So that just comes off the table."

Out for real this time. Have a great weekend.
 
They put the same thing. They won't admit on the SF86 that they have done drugs before. The recruiters and even the guy in charge of recruiting ROTC at my school told them not to put it on if it is not documented. We were told that OPM and NAC don't have time nor resources to accurately look through your whole entire background. It cost them to much. Unless you put it down they would just make sure you good standings. That is what my recruiter told me.

Your recruiter is wrong and so is your MOI. If that is the guidance they are giving... I am appalled by it. Lying under oath and once you have raised your right hand does very much violate the UCMJ. Your justification of all this as the thread continues is actually getting worse. You are clearly advocating lying. Wondering what else you are willing to compromise on? To future candidates, answer the truth on the applications. It will make your lives much easier. You never know what your future may look like 5, 10, 15, 30 years from now. Don’t close the door on a future because you decided to cover up the fact you smoked something at 17 or are scared what mom and dad might say.

You would be surprised that many recruiters tell candidates this. My OSO for the marines told me the same thing. If your recruiter told you not put it down are you still going to listen to him or be honest and say yes?
 
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I never had that issue. I know what recruiters say and do. And I hate the recruiting world and the pressure they put on Marines to meet quota. Yes, the drug question could use work, along with the recruiting world, but that isn’t changing for you right now. It’s the system everyone has to work in until it changes. Regardless of what a recruiter says, it’s your name on those documents. And yes, I have seen people thrown out of the Marine Corps, to include an officer, for lying on documents. The recruiter will not be held accountable, you will. I have seen amazing job offers pulled for lies as simple as you think they are when they reviewed items from polygraph test and interviews.

So if you become a pilot and sign off that you are safe to fly yet took OTC allergy meds without flight surgeon approval, you just going to say, no worries it will be fine? Oh I had a drink 7 instead of 8 hours ago or had 1 too many... I don’t wanna get in trouble, so sign off you are good? There seems to be a continual justification and on a slippery slope. If it meets your needs, then it’s okay to jump over that line. None of the stuff I have brought up is mythical and has happened multiple times. You have taken so little to no accountability in all this, which is the core of being an officer. You are so close to becoming a Marine with the lackadaisical attitude that you have towards integrity... it makes me scratch my head. As long as it’s suits your long game, you seem to be able to justify it.

Again, no one is perfect, including me. I have made mistakes. I will always own them.
 
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I never had that issue. I know what recruiters say and do. And I hate the recruiting world and the pressure they put on Marines to meet quota. Yes, the drug question could use work, along with the recruiting world, but that isn’t changing for you right now. It’s the system everyone has to work in until it changes. Regardless of what a recruiter says, it’s your name on those documents. And yes, I have seen people thrown out of the Marine Corps, to include an officer, for lying on documents. The recruiter will not be held accountable, you will. I have seen amazing job offers pulled for lies as simple as you think they are when they reviewed items from polygraph test and interviews.

So if you become a pilot and sign off that you are safe to fly yet took OTC allergy meds without flight surgeon approval, you just going to say, no worries it will be fine? Oh I had a drink 7 instead of 8 hours ago or had 1 too many... I don’t wanna get in trouble, so sign off you are good? You seem to be able to justify so much and on a slippery slope. If it meets your needs, then it’s okay to jump over that line. None of the stuff I have brought up is mythical and has happened multiple times. You have taken so little to no accountability in all this. It terrifies me that you are so close to becoming a Marine with the lackadaisical attitude that you have towards integrity. All long as it’s suits your long game, you seem to be able to justify it.

Again, no one is perfect, including me. I have made mistakes. I will always own them.

I don’t think the OP here is directly supporting lying on drug use, i think his views are more of “it’s not a big deal” or no one takes it seriously. Which I don’t agree with but those are his views.

That being said I think it is unfair for you to automatically assume that he is a person full of crap who dosent value integrity. He isn’t the only one who has views on that and I know many of my friends who lied on the form too and are great leaders today. Of course what they did was wrong but they aren’t people dishonorable members.
 
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