Longer service obligation for SA grads under review

emwvmi01

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Found this interesting in a DOD roll up this morning.

The Senate Armed Services Committee wants the services to take a fresh look at the eight-year service obligation, at least five in active service, incurred by graduates of the U.S. Military Academy at West Point and the other service academies. The cost of graduates has increased while academy graduates have a lower retention rate than officers from other commissioning sources, the committee says.

What to Watch: The current eight-year service obligation for academy graduates last changed in 1996. In a report due April 1, the committee would like the Pentagon to explore several options, including giving preference to people who are willing to accept longer obligations to service.
 
Mod Note:
Merged three threads based on the common topic.
 
academy graduates have a lower retention rate than officers from other commissioning sources, the committee says.
Will probably always be that way, seeing as how they have a degree from an Ivy league institution unlike most of their counterparts. Not that making a career in the military is a bad choice at all, but asking a West Point, Annapolis, etc. grad (especially those with marketable degrees) to stay in the military rather than enter the private sector is like asking an MIT engineering grad to work at Walmart.
 
academy graduates have a lower retention rate than officers from other commissioning sources, the committee says.
Will probably always be that way, seeing as how they have a degree from an Ivy league institution unlike most of their counterparts. Not that making a career in the military is a bad choice at all, but asking a West Point, Annapolis, etc. grad (especially those with marketable degrees) to stay in the military rather than enter the private sector is like asking an MIT engineering grad to work at Walmart.

There are other factors to consider- for example OCS and some ROTC are prior service, so they will get to 20 years quicker, so might be less likely to get out after the initial service obligation. Don’t know how far retention rate goes back to but for back in 95 or 96 an early out was offered. Another factor could be the retention rate by branch - is there a difference? I believe West Point commissions a higher percentage of combat arms.
 
asking a West Point, Annapolis, etc. grad (especially those with marketable degrees) to stay in the military rather than enter the private sector is like asking an MIT engineering grad to work at Walmart.

Then go to the actual Ivy League school and don't worry about it.

Or when WP 2LT shows up at BOLC and first duty station, he/she should make sure everyone is aware of his/her self-regard.
 
Another factor could be the retention rate by branch - is there a difference? I believe West Point commissions a higher percentage of combat arms.

While WP branches a higher percentage to combat arms, that percentage is based off around 900+ cadets, ROTC branches a smaller percentage but it is based off around 3000 cadets. In the end ROTC branches a smaller percentage but a larger number overall to combat arms. You are correct in that ROTC also branches a larger number of cadets to logistics and support branches then WP and that could have some impact on the numbers, like you said, it would be interesting to see the retention rates by branch.
 
asking a West Point, Annapolis, etc. grad (especially those with marketable degrees) to stay in the military rather than enter the private sector is like asking an MIT engineering grad to work at Walmart.

Then go to the actual Ivy League school and don't worry about it.

Or when WP 2LT shows up at BOLC and first duty station, he/she should make sure everyone is aware of his/her self-regard.
Yes but they would most likely have to pay for those other schools.
 
asking a West Point, Annapolis, etc. grad (especially those with marketable degrees) to stay in the military rather than enter the private sector is like asking an MIT engineering grad to work at Walmart.

Then go to the actual Ivy League school and don't worry about it.

Or when WP 2LT shows up at BOLC and first duty station, he/she should make sure everyone is aware of his/her self-regard.

Wait, so the SA grad who serves their 5 years and separates from the service is selfish?

Nice broad brush you're using there, bro.

Most of these folks have had more on their plate and done it better than their peers for over a decade by the time that 5 year mark rolls around. Fulfilling their commitment and all of the entailing sacrifices regarding family and personal events that are missed because of that obligation might make someone interested in what the rest of the world holds for their skill set and experiences. They might want a job where they can plan something out more than a month away... They might want a career where they aren't babysitting alleged adults 24/7. They might want a job where constraints and restrictions aren't simply at the whim and ego of their superiors, but rather the needs of the organization to which they belong. Some of this crap wears on a person, regardless of their level of commitment.

We're not talking about someone deserting or going UA, but rather fulfilling the commitment agreed upon when they first accepted that appointment. They work their asses off in school and then take on some of the most challenging roles in the military, and after they've fulfilled the 5 years, that isn't enough?
 
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IMHO, since the SA's need a "diverse" force of Cadets, that effects some of the retention. I would like to see statistics but possibly many of the graduates of the SA's would not meet the requirements for top tier private Universities, but accept the SA's knowing they are "Top Tier Schools" that they can get into. Money may also play a factor, ROTC in some instances only pays tuition, but room and board for a lot of regular students is "out of reach" and un-affordable for a lot of good well rounded applicants, hence if they can use a SA to get that "Top tier" education, then the service obligation is worth it, to be able to be successful in civilian life. And I think, that some who attend with the aspiration of doing the five years and leaving change their mind while serving, so it may even out some.
Either way, just because someone does five years and leaves should not reflect badly on the SA's or the military in general. If we get an economic downturn, the retention rates will likely skyrocket up as the high paying jobs may not be as plentiful. JMHO..:)
 
IMHO, since the SA's need a "diverse" force of Cadets, that effects some of the retention. I would like to see statistics but possibly many of the graduates of the SA's would not meet the requirements for top tier private Universities, but accept the SA's knowing they are "Top Tier Schools" that they can get into. Money may also play a factor, ROTC in some instances only pays tuition, but room and board for a lot of regular students is "out of reach" and un-affordable for a lot of good well rounded applicants, hence if they can use a SA to get that "Top tier" education, then the service obligation is worth it, to be able to be successful in civilian life. And I think, that some who attend with the aspiration of doing the five years and leaving change their mind while serving, so it may even out some.
Either way, just because someone does five years and leaves should not reflect badly on the SA's or the military in general. If we get an economic downturn, the retention rates will likely skyrocket up as the high paying jobs may not be as plentiful. JMHO..:)[/QUOTE

Almost all schools are actively working to increase diversity on their campuses. In addition, students who attend a SA must meet many additional requirements that students attending other schools do not have to consider when applying to school. I’m not saying that all students who attend a SA are perfect. I just question the insinuation that seeking diversity results in admitting cadets with lower qualifications than students who attend other schools.
 
Almost all schools are actively working to increase diversity on their campuses. In addition, students who attend a SA must meet many additional requirements that students attending other schools do not have to consider when applying to school. I’m not saying that all students who attend a SA are perfect. I just question the insinuation that seeking diversity results in admitting cadets with lower qualifications than students who attend other schools.

So I'm trying to convince one of my son's friends to attend one of the SA's. He's just a great kid, a minority, 2 sports varsity athlete, +1300 on the SAT's, and a Student leader. After what I thought was a fine sell....he say's to me...."Now just why do I want spend 4 years in a Military Academy, and them 5 years service after that when I'm talking to (Insert University ) for a full ride?" So I salute those diversity cadets with lower qualifications, because they still could have gone anywhere but chose to serve their country.
 
Wait, so the SA grad who serves their 5 years and separates from the service is selfish?

Nice broad brush you're using there, bro.

Well, Bro. Nowhere did I say it is selfish to five and dive. The only thing I've ever written on the topic is that SA athletes should fulfill their service obligation, the same as all the other Cadets/Mids.

@Tex232 used the MIT/Walmart metaphor, which I assume would apply to the term of the service obligation as well as to service beyond. I objected to the attitude reflected in his comment. I'm sure he didn't mean it the way it sounded, but I'll bet he hasn't said it around his 37 year old NCO/Chief who never went to college.

They might want a career where they aren't babysitting alleged adults 24/7. They might want a job where constraints and restrictions aren't simply at the whim and ego of their superiors, but rather the needs of the organization to which they belong.

Maybe I misread your statement. but you seem to be echoing Tex. I couldn't tell if the "babysitting alleged adults" and egotistical superiors referred to the US Military or to the metaphorical Walmart. If you're referring to the military then I'll bet you don't say, or didn't say that around anyone in your chain of command.

There is no question that SA and SMC graduates are better and more thoroughly trained and proven themselves in a more demanding environment physically, mentally and academically. Maybe that fosters an attitude of superiority which will eventually seep out.
 
Wait, so the SA grad who serves their 5 years and separates from the service is selfish?

Nice broad brush you're using there, bro.

Most of these folks have had more on their plate and done it better than their peers for over a decade by the time that 5 year mark rolls around. Fulfilling their commitment and all of the entailing sacrifices regarding family and personal events that are missed because of that obligation might make someone interested in what the rest of the world holds for their skill set and experiences. They might want a job where they can plan something out more than a month away... They might want a career where they aren't babysitting alleged adults 24/7. They might want a job where constraints and restrictions aren't simply at the whim and ego of their superiors, but rather the needs of the organization to which they belong. Some of this crap wears on a person, regardless of their level of commitment.

We're not talking about someone deserting or going UA, but rather fulfilling the commitment agreed upon when they first accepted that appointment. They work their asses off in school and then take on some of the most challenging roles in the military, and after they've fulfilled the 5 years, that isn't enough?

I don't think anyone has implied that any grad is selfish for leaving after their original obligation. The article says nothing about being selfish, what it does say is that they are looking at the cost attached to the SA and how the length of obligation compares overall, this is nothing new, for example.

1) Both my sons branched Aviation, because of the length and cost of flight school their original obligation was extended by 2 years.
2) Those that attend grad school have their obligation extended because of the cost incurred.
3) AF Pilots have a much longer obligation due to the cost of their training as well as Navy and Marines.
4) The CG has a nearly 11 year obligation for pilot joining.
5) WOFT is already looking at extending the original obligation to 8 years because of the time and cost of sending them through BCT, WOCS, and flight school.
Again, extended obligations are nothing new and have no connection to someone being selfish.

If service members go to special training or switch branches they have extended obligations. My son left Aviation and went to SOF and his obligation was extended in part due to the cost of nearly 2 years of training.

All the article said and what some have echoed here is that the cost of a SA has grown to 200K plus and the Military is simply looking at whether they need to extend that obligation to match what is spent, no different then what is done all the time in the military. I'd have no issue if the military looked at extending the service obligation to even ROTC cadets that attend private universities that have an annual cost in line with the SA's

"Most of these folks have had more on their plate and done it better than their peers for over a decade by the time that 5 year mark rolls around. "

Could you expand on this, I'm curious about how most of them have done it better then their peers during their obligation, and just because someone did not attend a SA doesn't meat they had an empty plate.

Also, it may come as a surprise but those that did not attend a SA have the same sacrifices during their obligation as well as the same experiences and skill sets. Looking for opportunities outside the military is not exclusive to SA grads.

I sincerely hope that the SA's are not instilling into their cadets and mids that enlisted members of the military are "alleged adults" and that their job is babysitter.
 
Not that making a career in the military is a bad choice at all, but asking a West Point, Annapolis, etc. grad (especially those with marketable degrees) to stay in the military rather than enter the private sector is like asking an MIT engineering grad to work at Walmart.

The fallacy of this argument is breathtaking. West Point and Annapolis graduates trained specifically to serve in the military. That is the entire “reason for being” for a cadet or midshipman. MIT graduates did not train specifically to work at Walmart, at least not as a “blue vest,” which is the implication. (By the way, Walmart is a vast, complex and sophisticated operation. There are incredibly talented, highly intelligent, deeply trained engineers — perhaps even with degrees from MIT, Stanford, Northwestern — toiling away there, and not necessarily in engineering roles.)
 
"Most of these folks have had more on their plate and done it better than their peers for over a decade by the time that 5 year mark rolls around. "

I should have specified their peers from childhood/ high school.
It wasn't pertaining to their military commitment versus that of the non-SA grad, but as to their 'college experience' and military service. It's hardly the same as the non-military bro or chick they knew from high school.

I am not bemoaning the sacrifices made, but simply recognizing that they ARE made.

Add in a 5 year term of service, and it's not unusual at all for someone to want to start living for themselves again.
 
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Maybe I misread your statement. but you seem to be echoing Tex. I couldn't tell if the "babysitting alleged adults" and egotistical superiors referred to the US Military or to the metaphorical Walmart. If you're referring to the military then I'll bet you don't say, or didn't say that around anyone in your chain of command.

.

My son and I compare management and leadership stories all of the time. In my post I mentioned the 24/7 aspect of being accountable for your people. In the real world, what my people do on their time is their problem. My son is responsible/ accountable to his subordinates' behavior/ whereabouts all the time. Again, i am not bemoaning the responsibility. He signed up for it and loves the leadership part of his role. That being said, the civilian difference calls to you when you get sick of dealing with the domestic violence/ drug busts/ alcohol boards/ UA/etc/ etc/

Thus, the 24/7 babysitting comment. It wasn't about the actual time on the job/ working hours responsibilities.
 
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