Very good students?

tug_boat said:
WP is the jewel of DoD and will always be the "premier" SA. Not to be boastful, but federal funding will always be there to keep the oldest and longest post operating. 80% of instructors are active military which is the a big difference to other academies. They have a deep ownership core value and belief. However, cynicism is rampant at WP. Ive often pondered..... is this the type of leadership trait we want? WP is not for everyone. A Cadets every minute of their day is dictated. Both of my sons noticed......"high school hero....West Point zero.

Push Hard, Press Forward
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I’ve read about the cynicism and it’s disappointing. What do you think are the reasons for cynicism being rampant?
My hope is that if DS attends, he can go in with a realistic view of the numerous benefits and any key issues rather than being blindsided, though I bet nothing prepares you for the water until you’re in it.
 
Honestly, any SA is a means to an end. That end being a commissioned officer leading their people. He will be at a SA 4 years. Which is a mere blip on his whole life radar.

If he doesn’t want to be around people ‘beneath’ him academically (BC that’s the tone here), I personally don’t think a SA is for him. And not because of the quality of the academics, but rather because of the attitude that he is better than others. Becoming a commissioned officer in charge of his enlisted with that attitude rubs me the wrong way. Maybe I’m reading this all wrong. But if he wants to be an officer and serve, why are you so focused on the academics piece for 4 measly years? It’s merely a means to a much bigger end.

What is your DS’s alternative? What’s his plan B?
 
Another item to consider when comparing schools is that USMA uses essentially the WCS approach when calculating class rank throughout their time at the academy. Class rank determines branch and post among other things therefore it’s not like high school where the highest GPA wins. Your child’s class rank at an “academic college” may be higher than their rank at USMA once physical fitness and leadership are factored into the GPA.
 
cptenca said:
Another item to consider when comparing schools is that USMA uses essentially the WCS approach when calculating class rank throughout their time at the academy. Class rank determines branch and post among other things therefore it’s not like high school where the highest GPA wins. Your child’s class rank at an “academic college” may be higher than their rank at USMA once physical fitness and leadership are factored into the GPA.
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I’ve heard that may be changing some.
 
You are correct in that branch now has a greater say in branch selection but class rank at USMA will never be straight GPA like at other colleges. Said with the understanding that I will never be in charge at USMA so I could be dead wrong.
 
cptenca said:
You are correct in that branch now has a greater say in branch selection but class rank at USMA will never be straight GPA like at other colleges. Said with the understanding that I will never be in charge at USMA so I could be dead wrong.
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No, one day you WILL be in charge. Then things will be run right.
But yeah. I think they realized, especially with the push for USMA to go mostly all combat arms there are some people who really shouldn’t be infantry.
 
^^
What I’m trying to explain in an Army way is that if a cadet wants aviation, they can’t necessarily get it because they have the highest GPA. They need a higher class rank and although a great GPA will probably overcome poor fitness or leadership there’s no guarantee. So for someone who goes through life believing the highest GPA wins, that’s not necessarily true at USMA. And I say that without judgement to those who value high GPAs. Everyone has their own value sets.
 
cptenca said:
^^
What I’m trying to explain in an Army way is that if a cadet wants aviation, they can’t necessarily get it because they have the highest GPA. They need a higher class rank and although a great GPA will probably overcome poor fitness or leadership there’s no guarantee. So for someone who goes through life believing the highest GPA wins, that’s not necessarily true at USMA. And I say that without judgement to those who value high GPAs. Everyone has their own value sets.
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Sorry. I was agreeing with you. I speak pilot but not so good English.
 
cptenca said:
Another item to consider when comparing schools is that USMA uses essentially the WCS approach when calculating class rank throughout their time at the academy. Class rank determines branch and post among other things therefore it’s not like high school where the highest GPA wins. Your child’s class rank at an “academic college” may be higher than their rank at USMA once physical fitness and leadership are factored into the GPA.
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I'm the one focused on the academics, he is not. I think he'll do fine in all aspects of the ranking. His CFA scores were all above average, some well above average (like 15 pullups).
 
justdoit19 said:
Honestly, any SA is a means to an end. That end being a commissioned officer leading their people. He will be at a SA 4 years. Which is a mere blip on his whole life radar.

If he doesn’t want to be around people ‘beneath’ him academically (BC that’s the tone here), I personally don’t think a SA is for him. And not because of the quality of the academics, but rather because of the attitude that he is better than others. Becoming a commissioned officer in charge of his enlisted with that attitude rubs me the wrong way. Maybe I’m reading this all wrong. But if he wants to be an officer and serve, why are you so focused on the academics piece for 4 measly years? It’s merely a means to a much bigger end.

What is your DS’s alternative? What’s his plan B?
Click to expand...
I never said he didn't want to be around people 'beneath' him academically. I didn't even say *I* didn't want him to be around people "beneath him" academically. I said I wanted him to be challenged academically. Who WOULDN'T want their child to be challenged academically in college, SA or not? The alternative is boredom in class, and that's not good for anyone. The myriad helpful answers on this thread have confirmed what I had hoped, that between validating classes and the unique opportunities for study at USMA, he will be challenged in every way, including academically. And just to reiterate, *I'm* the one asking this question, not him in any way. He has never mentioned this once. He's super focused on the leadership and service aspect, as am I. I just asked a question that, whether a prospective parent "gets" what the academy is all about (and contrary to some opinions on this thread, I do), it's a frikking reasonable question to ask about academics.
 
At the end of the day...its the kids journey and not the parents. The person should choose USMA if they want to lead America's sons and daughters. If that is the desire of the candidate...and if they are fortunate enough to gain admissions...they will be most definitely challenged academically...mentally and physically and one thing is certain...though they may be the best and brightest in their current circumstance..once admitted they will learn they are surrounded by equally talented young men and women. They will excel in some areas and will have the opportunity to assist fellow cadets and they will be challenged at times and will need the help of their fellow cadets.

It is their journey and it has to begin and end with their desire to lead others...
 
JWP said:
At the end of the day...its the kids journey and not the parents. The person should choose USMA if they want to lead America's sons and daughters. If that is the desire of the candidate...and if they are fortunate enough to gain admissions...they will be most definitely challenged academically...mentally and physically and one thing is certain...though they may be the best and brightest in their current circumstance..once admitted they will learn they are surrounded by equally talented young men and women. They will excel in some areas and will have the opportunity to assist fellow cadets and they will be challenged at times and will need the help of their fellow cadets.

It is their journey and it has to begin and end with their desire to lead others...
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Thanks again, everyone. I'll try to come up with an equally controversial post for tomorrow ;). Have a good night.
 
If your kid walks into WP with the idea that he's above everyone else academically, and everyone else is average...he's going to get woken up real quick. Regardless of averages, you need to remember that these schools only accept the brightest minds. Every person is there for a reason, and it is because the admissions board believes that they could one day be an Army officer. Averages are averages, and he WILL meet kids who outshine him academically, physically, and leadership wise.
 
Since I joined this forum a few short months ago, I have read so many posts about candidates who have 4.0+ GPAs, 1500+ SAT's and who are also captain of the football, baseball and basketball teams, President of their church your group, etc., etc. that I seriously question whether my DS, who I think is "Captain America" is even worthy of being in such elite company. While I am sure that every mid or cadet is not a superstar, there are many, many, many who are. There will be plenty of competition even for Superman.
 
NJROTC-CC said:
tug_boat said:
WP is the jewel of DoD and will always be the "premier" SA.
Click to expand...

Well, this was a topic about academics, so I just want to point out that the average SAT scores at USNA are about 100 pts higher than USMA according to “PrepScholar”
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I believe the USNA WCS is 70% Academics, 20% Leadership/ECA and 10% CFA vs 60%, 30%, 10% for USMA.

The physical requirements at West Point are slightly more demanding than other SAs. Navy seems to look a little more closely at academics. This makes sense given the mission. That said, the students at USMA, USNA & AFA are very similar. Many candidates receive multiple appointments
 
NJDadofDSUSMA2024Hopeful said:
tug_boat said:
WP is the jewel of DoD and will always be the "premier" SA. Not to be boastful, but federal funding will always be there to keep the oldest and longest post operating. 80% of instructors are active military which is the a big difference to other academies. They have a deep ownership core value and belief. However, cynicism is rampant at WP. Ive often pondered..... is this the type of leadership trait we want? WP is not for everyone. A Cadets every minute of their day is dictated. Both of my sons noticed......"high school hero....West Point zero.

Push Hard, Press Forward
Click to expand...

I’ve read about the cynicism and it’s disappointing. What do you think are the reasons for cynicism being rampant?
My hope is that if DS attends, he can go in with a realistic view of the numerous benefits and any key issues rather than being blindsided, though I bet nothing prepares you for the water until you’re in it.
Click to expand...

There is cynicism at all three academies and most other colleges/universities
 
On my interaction with a USMA alumni, he said everyone got a D (fail) in one of the first few class assignment, whether you were A student or a D student. There were folks like him who didn’t do well in their high school so he was used to get D, but there were others who were A+ in their high school suffered a major setback. In his opinion, it was a way the instructors pushed everybody hard to excel. So it’s not just academic excellence, but how one deals with pressure, balancing various aspects of cadet life that is being tested.
 
NJROTC-CC said:
Since I joined this forum a few short months ago, I have read so many posts about candidates who have 4.0+ GPAs, 1500+ SAT's and who are also captain of the football, baseball and basketball teams, President of their church your group, etc., etc. that I seriously question whether my DS, who I think is "Captain America" is even worthy of being in such elite company. While I am sure that every mid or cadet is not a superstar, there are many, many, many who are. There will be plenty of competition even for Superman.
Click to expand...

This is EXACTLY why I am passionate about posting the point that not everyone is! And even more so potential CANDIDATES who read these threads and don’t think they even have a shot. It’s just not true. It’s MORE than the resume/GPA. It’s the whole person. DS didn’t have a perfect GPA. Had he listened to stuff here, he wouldn’t be a contender. Nor would many of his closest buddies currently in classes with him on the Dants list too, making the most of their experience and knowing they are on their right journeys.

Receiving an appointment and then succeeding at a SA is sooooo much more than stats and resumes. Th SA’s have been at this a long time, and are pretty good at identifying leaders for their mission. Which never anywhere have I read that they ‘tout having the highest academic’s’ (to OP’s point). To readers: don’t be dissuaded from applying....go for it if you want it (and meet the general class profile)!!
 
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