Stigma of USAFA grads?

U

usafa/2022

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What is the stigma of USAFA grads? I've heard that they are either great or horrible. Hoping that grads and enlisted could shine some light on this. Thanks!
 
I can tell you that the Rotc and OTS guys at UPT make fun of them. However, my guess is that they make fun of the Rotc and OTS guys also. Since the academy guys were a minority in my son's flight class as well as the classs before and after them, it was a standard joke among them.
 
usafa/2022 said:
What is the stigma of USAFA grads? I've heard that they are either great or horrible. Hoping that grads and enlisted could shine some light on this. Thanks!
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Is this some kind of joke I'm missing? Were I a USAFA grad, I would take some umbrage, here.
 
Humey said:
I can tell you that the Rotc and OTS guys at UPT make fun of them. However, my guess is that they make fun of the Rotc and OTS guys also. Since the academy guys were a minority in my son's flight class as well as the classs before and after them, it was a standard joke among them.
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Pardon the ignorance..
Why are they worst? If worst, then why getting into USAFA considered prestigious?
 
txfwindian said:
Humey said:
I can tell you that the Rotc and OTS guys at UPT make fun of them. However, my guess is that they make fun of the Rotc and OTS guys also. Since the academy guys were a minority in my son's flight class as well as the classs before and after them, it was a standard joke among them.
Click to expand...

Pardon the ignorance..
Why are they worst? If worst, then why getting into USAFA considered prestigious?
Click to expand...

Nobody said they were the worst, just that they made fun of them and I also said the academy guys probably make fun of the Rotc and OTS guys
 
Capt MJ said:
We need the Sarcasm font. Ditto Irony font. Ditto deadpan-jerking-your-chain font.

And nice to see Hornetguy buzz in and deliver a stinger!
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With my glasses on, I was unable to see the sarcasm font.. [emoji6][emoji6]
 
But to give a slightly more realistic answer - generally USAFA grads make pretty bad new lieutenants (primarily because they are burnt out already) but good officers a few years later.

That being said, I suspect it depends on the career field. In Acquisitions, there is no stigma at all that I have ever noticed. I would also add that the more years removed you are from USAFA, the less it matters at all. That might explain why it mattered a little at UPT. I just went to SOS last year and my flight had 5 USAFA grads (out of 13), but it took us like a week to even figure that out. No cared in the slightest.
 
Every commissioning source makes a few bad apples, but USAFA is the largest single-college source. It also graduates some people who sometimes think USAFA was the real Air Force and things should be done as the academy did them. (A suspect idea!)
Most of the time, as long as you don't start too many conversations with "Well, back at the Academy..." things will be fine.
 
I agree that USAFA has not and does not do a good job of educating cadets on life in the "real" Air Force. When I graduated and got to my first unit I wondered for a month when we were going to have our first formation and uniform inspection. I have it on good authority that not much in the area of emulating the real AF has changed. Things like Ops AF and even having an enlisted member in the Cadet Squadron seem to have done little to fix the steep learning curve that grads face when getting to their first unit. I suspect it may be perceived differently for pilots than support officers (career fields as USAFA10s mentioned). Support officers serving as a section chief or flight chief could easily find themselves interacting with junior or even senior enlisted members about significant personal issues their subordinates are facing during their first week in the unit. Pilots may not need to deal with an enlisted member's personal issues until they are a Lt Col Sq CC (depending on airframe and duty positions).

On the surface this discussion may seem superfluous but I think it is significant. Many grads immediately enter leadership positions (support/maintenance) while many enter very technical positions (pilots/scientists). (I am not hating on pilots here - I fully realize it is the Air Force.) New grads in leadership positions would do well to shadow a trustworthy senior NCO their first 6 months (and continue to heed their advice the rest of their career) or so in their unit. To find out who those trustworthy SNCOs are - talk to your Chief and Sq CC. Most squadron leadership (officer and enlisted) will bend over backwards to help a junior officer who recognizes that (regardless of commissioning source) they know little about how things work in the real Air Force and are more interested in learning about leading than in telling everyone within earshot what they think.

I believe USAFA is trying to improve on this. I know 3 degrees are paired to mentor 4 degrees now. That is a good thing on the surface. The bad thing is that most 3 degrees have no idea what they are doing (most Firsties don't either) and if mentored improperly themselves may pass on poor guidance. That is an easy trap to fall into - thinking that the way you were trained was the best way to be trained so that is the way that you train others.

I appreciate usafa/2022 asking this question and seeking feedback. If you are a current '22er my piece of advice for you now would be to ask any priors (even SMACK priors) in your squad how it is in the real Air Force and what you can do to make your CS a better training ground now for our future leaders - work with your cadet chain and AOC on this as well. The other thing would be to train/lead the 4 Smokes the way you would want to be lead. For instance, it may be common practice for one 3 degree to do pushups with all of the 4 degrees and then another 3 degree to do situps etc during training session. You will instantly lose all credibility with your 4 degrees unless you (and your classmates) do everything that you are asking them to do. In the real AF a Lt or a Col would never stand around on a PT morning and just watch and randomly do some exercises while their Airman were working out.

Last bid of advice (for now) from a grad and parent still serving that has been around the globe a few times - your subordinates (even underclassmen) will not care how much you know until they know how much you care. LISTEN to them, ask them clarifying questions, ask them their opinion, then be quiet, and think, and be quiet and think some more, before you speak. Every day - ask yourself - are you an ALL IN Leader for our Airman or just a person with a degree and a commission that sometimes on occasion interacts with them? Do this and you will earn your own respect regardless of your rank, career field or commissioning source.
 
I would expect that it is much the same as any of the Service Academies...being a grad does not set you a pedestal and make you better than any other Commissioning Source, and being and Officer doesn't make you better than your enlisted folks. I'm sure that all Service Academies have graduates that think they are the best and the brightest, and here sh!t doesn't stink, and their attitude toward their peers and enlisted shows --that's the STIGMA.

My view is that commissioning through a Service Academy "might" give you a head start and slightly better preparation for the "Fleet" (or whatever the real Air Force or Army is called) , but the ROTC and OCS grads quickly catch up and by the time the first tour is up, are virtually indistinguishable and and the cream rises to the top.

7258FFAWPOA said:
Last bid of advice (for now) from a grad and parent still serving that has been around the globe a few times - your subordinates (even underclassmen) will not care how much you know until they know how much you care. LISTEN to them, ask them clarifying questions, ask them their opinion, then be quiet, and think, and be quiet and think some more, before you speak. Every day - ask yourself - are you an ALL IN Leader for our Airman or just a person with a degree and a commission that sometimes on occasion interacts with them? Do this and you will earn your own respect regardless of your rank, career field or commissioning source.
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> Some great advice here....listen to your Senior enlisted (Chiefs in the Navy). I was just thinking about this the other day, and realized that I could remember the names and something about each of the Chief Petty Officers in my Aviation Maintenance Division. (As an aside, some of my favorite "sea stories" originate in the Chief's mess).

Finally, as a new Ensign and 2nd Lt,, always remember the old adage that it is better to remain silent and let people think you are stupid, than open your mouth and remove all doubt !
 
7258FFAWPOA said:
I agree that USAFA has not and does not do a good job of educating cadets on life in the "real" Air Force. When I graduated and got to my first unit I wondered for a month when we were going to have our first formation and uniform inspection. I have it on good authority that not much in the area of emulating the real AF has changed. Things like Ops AF and even having an enlisted member in the Cadet Squadron seem to have done little to fix the steep learning curve that grads face when getting to their first unit. I suspect it may be perceived differently for pilots than support officers (career fields as USAFA10s mentioned). Support officers serving as a section chief or flight chief could easily find themselves interacting with junior or even senior enlisted members about significant personal issues their subordinates are facing during their first week in the unit. Pilots may not need to deal with an enlisted member's personal issues until they are a Lt Col Sq CC (depending on airframe and duty positions).

On the surface this discussion may seem superfluous but I think it is significant. Many grads immediately enter leadership positions (support/maintenance) while many enter very technical positions (pilots/scientists). (I am not hating on pilots here - I fully realize it is the Air Force.) New grads in leadership positions would do well to shadow a trustworthy senior NCO their first 6 months (and continue to heed their advice the rest of their career) or so in their unit. To find out who those trustworthy SNCOs are - talk to your Chief and Sq CC. Most squadron leadership (officer and enlisted) will bend over backwards to help a junior officer who recognizes that (regardless of commissioning source) they know little about how things work in the real Air Force and are more interested in learning about leading than in telling everyone within earshot what they think.

I believe USAFA is trying to improve on this. I know 3 degrees are paired to mentor 4 degrees now. That is a good thing on the surface. The bad thing is that most 3 degrees have no idea what they are doing (most Firsties don't either) and if mentored improperly themselves may pass on poor guidance. That is an easy trap to fall into - thinking that the way you were trained was the best way to be trained so that is the way that you train others.

I appreciate usafa/2022 asking this question and seeking feedback. If you are a current '22er my piece of advice for you now would be to ask any priors (even SMACK priors) in your squad how it is in the real Air Force and what you can do to make your CS a better training ground now for our future leaders - work with your cadet chain and AOC on this as well. The other thing would be to train/lead the 4 Smokes the way you would want to be lead. For instance, it may be common practice for one 3 degree to do pushups with all of the 4 degrees and then another 3 degree to do situps etc during training session. You will instantly lose all credibility with your 4 degrees unless you (and your classmates) do everything that you are asking them to do. In the real AF a Lt or a Col would never stand around on a PT morning and just watch and randomly do some exercises while their Airman were working out.

Last bid of advice (for now) from a grad and parent still serving that has been around the globe a few times - your subordinates (even underclassmen) will not care how much you know until they know how much you care. LISTEN to them, ask them clarifying questions, ask them their opinion, then be quiet, and think, and be quiet and think some more, before you speak. Every day - ask yourself - are you an ALL IN Leader for our Airman or just a person with a degree and a commission that sometimes on occasion interacts with them? Do this and you will earn your own respect regardless of your rank, career field or commissioning source.
Click to expand...
I can tell you at UPT, the student pilots really have very little interaction with the enlisted and even among themselves it is a very informal. In my son's class the students range from 2nd Lt to Major and they didnt go around saluting and ordering each other around. As for their instructors, while of course they had to take orders from them, around the section of the base where they have their classes and they fly, they dont salute or wear their caps. If anything, on Vance AFB and I would assume the other 2 UPT bases, the officers outnumber the enlisted. I have to assume its a very atypical version of the Air Force

I did read one article that sort of touched on what you are saying. Pilots especially fighter pilots, dont learn a lot leadership skills because they arent placed into that position until later on in their career. A Lt. in the army gets responsiblity for a certain number of enlisted and will make (hopefuly small ones) mistakes which he will learn from. He will however have those underneath and above him helping along the way to becomes a better leader. An Air Force pilot moves into that position later in his career and by that time he has lost all those year of experience that he could have learned from.
 
Thank you for all of the above advice! Certainly some good stuff to pass along to our DS. We've tried to tell him the same things but it carries more weight coming from those who have gone before him.
 
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