Reasons why so many candidates do not commission in ROTC?

Good Morning, or for those of you overseas, Good afternoon/ evening.

So it's like the 2nd step of his journey/ very very early for my DS, but honestly he loves ROTC. No joke - this is his jam/ interest. He has a pep in his step in describing what they're up to, hasn't missed a moment, and is excited about serving/ training, is learning, is looking ahead on where he may branch, etc. - seriously happy about that. in HS I would ask him how things are going and would most often get a one word answer "Good". Now when I call he's amped and very enthusiastic. All good so far. So this thread is not for my family, but I'm curious and thought it might help others to know...

Wanted to ask those with more experience in these programs why so many of the candidates who start as freshmen do not commission / finish and ultimately serve. There is in my observation a LARGE discrepancy between the number of candidates starting, and the commissioning ceremony numbers in recent years for one program I am following with particular interest and others I took a quick look at too.

A cousin of mine is a Army physician - we were chatting and he noted the following:
1. Some programmers try it and just decide it's not for them.
2. Some on scholarship take the 1st year on scholarship then walk away with no repay/ commitment.
3. Grades - some folks are dropped due to not having the right GPA
4. Fitness - some are above the line initially but fall below the minimum standards. Ahh, all you can eat college pizza and cheeseburgers at a point when catabolism begins
5. Participation - some are dropped because they do not attend enough training/ meetings.
6. Drug/ Alcohol infractions yield that some are dropped. Programs random test.
7. Challenge - some just are overwhelmed and this is not for them - they simply don't make it.
8. Attitude/ bad decisions- He mentioned mumbled talk-back as a red-flag for a candidate probably not working out in the program. He noted a few pretty funny examples.
9. Apparently some candidates are at some point advised they are not going to be supported to commission. That it's time to part ways.

Just curious for those with more experience in these programs how you see this- what are the top pitfalls these young women and men can avoid? In general what percentage of candidates that start the program end up commissioning, in your experience?

Thanks.

Herman_Snerd said:

what percentage of candidates that start the program end up commissioning, in your experience?

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My DS's MS-I class began with 40 in his freshman year. Including DS, 18 commissioned.

My DS observed that the most common reason seemed to be GPA related followed by those who lost interest.

You also left out those who were unable to commission due to injury or illness that occurred after DoDMERB. DS had a close call when he broke his pelvis and radius in his MS-II year but fortunately made a rapid and full recovery.

NROTC Marine Options have to pass Officer Candidate School between Junior and Senior year. There are integrity, attitude, proficiency, physical, leadership, peer reviews and other reasons for failure here - surprising after three full years in NROTC. One of the great things about this course is that it is led by senior enlisted Marines who have a vested interest in the Marine Officers of the future.

+1 Grunt

Army ROTC has Advanced Camp during the summer between MS-III and MS-IV year. It is a major test for AROTC cadets and has a definite impact on attrition.

All the above. But I would guess that a good number that start ROTC do not really know what they are getting into. And, they find for one reason or another, it is just not for them. Remember, non-scholarship freshman called "College Programmers" in NROTC, don't have to pass too much of a hurdle to enroll in Naval Science 1 and start "in" the NROTC program. Then, they have to prove A LOT along the way and some do not have what it takes. Same for Army and Air Force. Also, people sometimes just change their mind about what they are interested in as they mature. I started freshman year as a pre-med. It didn't work out for me and I found another path. The military isn't all John Wayne and Top Gun and many figure that out as they go through the program.

P.S. - I suggested both DS 1 and DS 2 give NJROTC a try. DS 1 found that it was NOT for him. DS 2 LOVES it. Everbody is different. Doesn't make one better than the other.

I’ve lost roughly 10-12 MIDN in my class, and still only a junior. Who knows how many will make it to commissioning? The reasons are many: didn’t pickup scholarship and was doing it almost solely for the money, went on summer trainings and realized the navy wasn’t for them, one kicked out for doing drugs, and other were GPA related. A wide variety.

Passing PRTs is also a big thing, especially before NSI existed. Many somehow come into the unit as freshman coming nowhere close to the commissioning requirement for PRTs.

+1 to Grunt. Some OCS classes lose a vast percentage of candidates. My favorite story was the guy in my son's OCS class who decided he would take a swing at an instructor Sgt. I always smile when wondering how he thought THAT was going to turn out well for him. He was down in 3 seconds and gone before the sun set.

A couple of other reasons could be an outside scholarship come through, or a change in majors. It could also be due to a bad command. I've wondered if the services look at the drop out rates and consider these in a commander's review. Or if they do exit interviews.
My kids' detachments haven't had many leave the program, only one that I recall either of them mentioning.

One other thing to think about is they are 18 when they start and they don’t know what they don’t know when the decision is made. My other two daughters play soccer in college. Most recruiting classes only see about half graduate still on the soccer team. For all the reasons mentioned above, thought they were going to get more money and didn’t, wasn’t what they expected, didn’t do as well (play) as expected, some transfer out, others quit. So I don’t think it is unusual for kids that think they want to do something at 18, by 20 realize they want something different. And the soccer analogy doesn’t require a commitment past college, which is another thing that kids might change their mind on.

Two other things I thought of (obviously I'm procrastinating from work today): The crosstown hassle of getting to the host school. I teach at a state college where AFROTC kids have to drive at a minimum of 1.5 hours to the host school in terrible traffic (due to a lot of major Interstate improvements).
The other issue could be an improving economy. If freshmen and sophomores see upperclassmen easily getting well-paid jobs, or walk through the college career fair and see well-paying career opportunities outside the military, they might be inclined to rethink their career choices.

They're kids. It's a volatile stage of life, with many new experiences prompting many new thoughts and re-evaluations.

I was a member of a fraternity. I saw the same thing happen there also . People join, becomes enthusiastic, go through the hassle of being pledge and become a full on member. A year later if you see them 3 times in a year, it s a lot. Now unlike Rotc they dont quit or maybe they do as they dont want to pay monthly dues. Whenever you have a group together whatever size, you will find that percerntage becomes the core group. In Rotc, I would presume your are either completely in or completely out. and those that stay in become the core group. For many reasons, whatever attracts people to a group, goes away. For Rotc, you have the grades and physical issues to content with but I would imagine the majority go away because they realize it isnt for them. In the fraternity, i imagine its the same thing. My point being all groups have the same issue. You start with a 100 and if you wind up with 60, you are doing good.

I second what has already has been said. There are many, many reasons why ROTC Candidates do not finish. Not all of them are related in any way to the ROTC Program they do. Some do it strictly because they cannot afford the school they want, then end up getting an academic scholarship after the first or second year and don't need the military scholarship and commitment any more, or find the academics at that "Top" school are just too much and leave for a different school. Some, especially STEM types have such a heavy course and academic load that the extra time needed to excel at ROTC is just not feasible, especially as they progress in a major. One that wasn't mentioned is that many "Programmers" or even "Scholarship Candidates" get into ROTC to try and better their chances at one of the academies and if appointed they leave ROTC after their freshman or sophomore year.

Girl friends and boy friends who don't want to traipse around the country after you.

kinnem said:

Girl friends and boy friends who don't want to traipse around the country after you.

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I think proximity to his GF was a key reason that DS chose a college within 180 miles from home versus 3,000 miles.

My son's program must have been an anomaly. They both went to the same smaller State University. Older son's class started with 14, lost one due to medical, gained 3 along the way and commissioned 16. Younger son's class had 16 show up on day one, two could not pass the APFT (Both 4 yr scholarship winners) and ended up dropping the program before they even started. They added 3 along the way and commissioned 17, other then the two that dropped before starting and the one medical, nobody else dropped and they completed all four years.

I guess the larger schools would have a larger attrition rate due to the numbers they recruit from and the size of their programs.

Some schools also have a more substantial party environment. That has an ill effect on 0500 PT.

AROTC-dad said:

Some schools also have more substantial party environment. That has an ill effect on 0500 PT.

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Reminds me of another one.... the scholarship freshman who showed up to PT drunk. He was gone at the end of the day. All the experienced midshipmen wondered why he didn't just call in sick or something. You cant make this stuff up!

Does anyone know if you can be denied into a nrotc unit by applying through the college program application